Straight Radiator Valve

Dave_127

Conference: HeatingHelp.com's The Wall
Forum: The Wall (For Heating Questions)
Topic: Straight Radiator Valve

Date: April 02, 2008 03:57 PM
Author: bob young (rny685@aol.com)
Subject: try a can of squick

system might be dirty & pushing up water w/ the steam.
are valves open full ?

Bob,

The valves are full open. I checked twice.

The water might be a bit dirty--I get a little gurgle out of a second floor radiator that was not replaced. It did not gurgle before. The plumber put "water conditioner" into the boiler because he was theorizing that the flux from his solder joints (yes, he used copper pipe) got into the water.

That said, I may have found the problem!

Reading the Newsletter at http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=54
I found that horizontal run-outs to a radiator riser need to pitch at 1" per foot or go up a pipe size.

The old radiator (actually a convector) had a 1-1/4" vertical riser from the basement to the second floor, which entered a right-angle valve, then a horizontal pipe (roughly 1-1/2' long underneath the convector) which then turned up into the end of the convector.

I split one bedroom into two by putting a wall down the middle and splitting the convector into two.

To split the convector, the plumber added a right angle to the top of the vertical steam pipe under the floor, ran horizontally (pitched, but I'm not sure how much) about 2', right angled up into the new wall, then T'd off the pipe to feed the two new convectors, one on each side of the wall. Each pipe runs from the T, out of the wall, into a straight gate valve under the convector, then to the inlet of the convector.

Based on the Newsletter, the pipes between the T and the convectors need to pitch at 1" per foot or be 1-1/2" since the old pipe was 1-1/4". I am not sure if the horizontal run from the top of the vertical pipe to the T needs that extra pitch or size, as well.

Does any of this sound right?

Should that section from the vertical pipe to the T also be pitched more steeply or up-sized, or does it take the usual 1"/10' with no change in pipe size?

Thanks for any and all help!

Dave

P.S. Yes, the plumber ran 1" copper pipe and not 1-1/4" iron pipe. Is it critical that I get them to switch to iron pipe or can I let them go with the copper? I assume that I need the plumber to continue the 1-1/4" size and not drop to 1".

Dave_127

Straight Radiator Valve

Can a straight steam radiator valve (1-pipe system) be mounted horizontally, or will the internal valve seat, etc., prevent the condensed steam from running back past the valve?

If it can be mounted horizontally, does it matter which way the valve stem faces (up or sideways) for the condensate to get past the valve?

I ask because I just split a room in two and had the steam pipe from the old radiator T'd off to feed two radiators--one in each room. The old radiator had an angle valve where the pipe came out of the floor. The new arrangement has the T inside the wall separating the rooms and horizontal, straight valves feeding the radiators. The new radiators are gurgling and rattling a *lot*. (The old one did not.)

Thanks,
Dave

Daniel_3

Yes to the first question; it would be best to keep it positioned with the stem facing straight up for the second question.

bob young

use rad. straight gate valves

Unknown

I agree with bob

here, globe valves are a poor choice for 1 pipe steam.

Dave

Dave_127

I'm not sure I understand the comment about globe valves. The valves used are black-handled steam valves and not water line valves.

Are the internals of those valves ill-suited to horizontal installation in a one-pipe steam system because the internal mechanism gets in the way of the returning condensate?

What could be used instead? Ball valves with the lever-type handle? Are these OK for steam? I need a straight valve that can be installed horizontally.

Thanks,
Dave

bob young

GATE

horizontal use steam GATE valve. NO OBSTRUCTION for condensate return. globe angle vertical.

Dave_127

Thanks--I did some web searching to understand the difference between a gate valve and a globe valve. I'll take a look when I get home, but I'll bet they are globe valves. If htey really are gate valves, I should be able to see the valve housing that the gate would raise into.

Can ball valves be used on 1-pipe steam systems if they are full-port ball valves? Does it take a special valve rated for steam?

I want to know if I can give the contractor the option of using gate valves or ball valves or if I should insist on gate valves.

Thanks again,
Dave

bob young

rad. valve

TO connect a radiator you need a steam rated valve & also a union. in the horizontal position use a gate valve. if you can find a ball valve that meets these specs. that is ok too. i have never seen one. you are making this to be way more than it is. a real plumber knows how to connect a radiator. must you instruct your dentist on how to fill a cavity ?

Dave_127

Well, the real plumber (that the general contractor hired) put in the globe valve. He also necked a 1-1/4" steam pipe down to 1", then down again to 3/4".

After looking at it with my oil service steam guy, I made the contractor replace the 3/4" with 1", but the floor was already rebuilt and the wall put up, so I couldn't get the 1" restored to 1-1/4". The steam guy didn't notice the globe valve, which I have now figured out.

At this point I want to get the gurgling and sputtering fixed and it seems that the best way to do it is to tell them what I want. Both the plumber and my oil company guy have said that they've done all they can. After insisting that the contractor bring in my oil company instead of his plumber, I can't take a gamble at asking him to bring in yet another heating company and hope that they don't also say that the can't figure it out.

I appreciate the help I've gotten here, because I now think I know how to get the problem fixed.

Dave_127

Well, I looked last night and they are indeed gate valves. The radiators tilt down toward the pipes and the pipes tilt down toward the T. The only possible place I can think of for the water to be collecting to cause all the sputtering and gurgling is in the T itself, but the arms of the T are only a couple of inches long, so I don't know if enough water could collect there to cause it.

I'm stumped.

Thanks for all the help.

Dave

bob young

try a can of squick

system might be dirty & pushing up water w/ the steam. are valves open full ?

bob young

wrong men for the job

you need a bonifide steam experienced mechanic to evaluate this job or it may never operate correctly. . these guys may be wonderful craftsmen but they have not a clue on how to install steam system piping . . sort of like hiring your dentist to fix your car engine.

Unknown

Again I agree with bob,

Dave(great name),, I sent you a pic trying to understand your problem, but no reply,, and not easy on the internet.
Please don`t think I ignored you,, I DID try.

Dave

Dave_127

Dave--Your picture doesn't quite reflect what I've got. I created a text drawing, but the posting software goofs up the spacing and I can't get a text file to attach to this message.

I have no idea how to find a real steam guy in my area (Concord, MA).

Dave