Need Help With Radient Inslab Heating

ScottMc

I hope someone can help me. I am a homeowner up in Canada (boom town Calgary) and am having an issue with a builder that we built with. I'm looking if you can direct me to some research or information on heat loss of radiant heating from the lack of an insulation under a concrete slab.

Ill give you a bit of a background here. When we purchased the new home, one of the selections that we choose was the radiant in floor heating in the basement slab, as we are going to develop the basement.After making our selection process, I told a good friend of mine (incidentally a plumber) our choice in the in floor heating. He mentioned to me that i need to make sure that there is a foam or foil insulation under the slab. We asked our sales person if here was, and he asked around his office. Which we were confirmed that there was insulation under the slab, 2" of foam. Upon our possession, we were told that foam was not included.

We complained to them that they had baited us and switch us, and are now contemplating taking them to court, over their mistake which may cost us money in the end. What i am asking for is if you know someone that can help me judge the heat loss of not having the 2" of foam under the slab, this is not my knowledgeable area as you can tell with my email, and I am at a loss here trying to find information. The builder has told us that they would add the foam at a cost of over 2500 plus taxes to us.

They repeatedly say that there is no savings to having the foam under the slab, and all I'm doing is heating the earth up underneath which helps heat the slab.

Please if anyone has an answer or can forward this on to someone that may know, I would be eternally grateful!

Thanks
Scott

Unknown

http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=420

good discussion on the matter. Quote: "A study sponsored by Beaver Plastics, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada suggests that a 1000 square foot basement placed in a climate somewhere between Calgary and Toronto and insulated underneath with 2" of EPS would save about $260 per year (Canadian dollars) at 10 cents per KWH."

GMcD

Call the Bean

Robert Bean- one of the top radiant designers/instructors on the continent lives in Calgary- busy guy, but at least local. His website www.healthyheating.com has a lot of information on what you are looking for, and you can contact him through there.

Without specifics like the soil conditions, areas involved, etc., one cannot make any estimates "over the phone" so to speak, but suffice to say, if a slab on grade is NOT insulated underneath, and you have "normal (not "wet" soil conditions), you can expect 25% to 40% of the heating being applied into the slab to go straight down into the earth, never to be seen again. Stay away from the foil products- they are next to useless. In Calgary, you MUST have at least 2" of rigid foam insulation under the slab-on-grade, as well as around the perimeter of the slab and footings as well as the normal frost protection apron footing insulation. Even if you weren't using a radiant floor heating slab, it's still a good idea to do that in a cold climate like Calgary, to minimize your heat losses, keep the heating equipment as small (less cost) as possible, and keep your energy use low for the life of the house. Natural gas and electricity are never going to go down in price so you might as well "future-proof" your home NOW.

Ed_26

Radiant issues

You could also contact Roy Collver @ Mechanical Systems 2000 - in Calgary - email - royc@ms-2000.com. Hope you get it worked out.

jp_2

building code?

what does your building code say? if its code and the builder did not install it, looks more like it their fault.

GW

what slab?

If this is the basement (how far under the ground id the slab...6 feet?), then you have less to worry about (still gonna lose some heat, and it will be much slower to respond to changes in room temperature desires).

If this is slab on grade you have serious problems.

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ScottMc

Building code said it is not required, i just checked with the city today.

ScottMc

The ceilings are around 6'11", and the concrete was poured over top of rock. The soil in my area is mostly clay (old farm land). I have posted some pictures of the rebar/tubing/rock on my website, www.controlaltdeleted.com/infloor you can browse the pictures 1x1 that way (they are full resolution pics). You can see in the photos where they had to cut out the existing slab once already because they forgot to put the new one in. So now they are telling me, (even tho the sales person confirmed with the site super that the price included the insulation (and I have it in an email from the sales guy)), if i want the foam, they will cutout the slab again, and put it in, for the price of $2558.50 +taxes. Which blew me away, I thought the foam was about $0.50 a foot, this basement is only 927 sq/ft. So I think they are trying to make me pay a lot more to cover the costs of the new concrete, and the labour.

Ed_26

Code matters

I find it difficult to believe that the City of Calgary blg. code would not require a min. of R-5 under heated slab... I think this is Can. code minimum? You should go to healthyheating.com & discuss this with R. Bean. Peruse his website as well... lots of info, as stated before.

tim smith

no way on high density foam 2\" @ .50 ft

But with that beside, if they are offering radiant floor heat, find out what type of tubing product they are using and check with the mfr, they will have a design manual that may stipulate the need for below slab insulation and edge insulation. If stipulated in mfr instructions, alot of local codes defer to mfr instructions as the requirement and this may give leverage.
PS $2500.00 is a great price for tear out and insulate but I would say in my opinion it should have been in radiant quote when you agreed to it unless specifically excluded. Just my opinion! Tim

mark o

radiant

sounds like a job for roth radiant panels