toe kick to replace cast iron radiator

Russell L. Hill Jr.

but aren't we all in this together even I failed to recomened a heat loss.

[Deleted User]

toekick to replace cast iron radiator?

My home is 200yrs old. I have cast iron hot water radiators throughout. The kitchen cabinet salesman suggested replacing the kitchen cast iron radiator,10" x 20" x 44", 1" connections with a toe kick heater,1/2"connections. what do you think? Is this a good idea? Help

ed wallace

kick space heater

bad idea wont give the same amount of heat

Brad White

IF

Ed's point is essentially correct but if I may fill in some blanks:

Let's stipulate that the heater is correctly sized to the calculated heat loss and even better, is sized proportional to the heat loss as if the cast iron radiators are over-sized. In other words, say your radiators are 50% over-sized because you insulated the house very well. We would then assume that the kickspace heater is also 50% over-sized. Even if all that is stipulated:

The kickspace heater (KSH) is a low-mass device. If you run it off of the same water circuit and temperatures as the cast iron, you will have a cold kitchen, especially when the cast iron side is satisfied.

IF you were to run the KSH on it's own circuit and thermostat (it's own zone and ability to call the boiler on even if the cast iron is satisfied), you have a shot at it. Make sure that you can use the hottest water off the boiler consistent with the heater's output, then you have a shot at it.

You may also want to make sure that your cast iron has it's own control such that if the kitchen calls the cast iron parts will not overheat.

Russell L. Hill Jr.

toe kick to replace cast iron radiator

I disagree. There are kick space heaters that can provide a multitude of BTU ratings. These heaters deserve another look. First I’ll look at the cons of the toe kick as I know them, mechanical so things eventually fail to work and need repair or replacement. I have installed many of these heaters using a couple of brands over the years I have not had many problems with noise, need for replacement or repair. Space can be an issue you need to look at the brands available to you and see if you can fit them into your design. Be careful not to place a large BTU device under a kitchen sink the human dish washer will not like you. Small to medium devices seem to be fine for this application. My list of pros may be small but the advantages of these devices. I feel out way the cons. They let you put a maximum amount of heat in a small space.

Russell L. Hill Jr.

Russell L. Hill Jr.

I concur

I concur with brad white.

J.C.A._3

As I'm Sitting here...

I can't believe that Brad,of all people.... missed the real point.If I may be so bold..........

THE GUY SELLS CABINETS !!!! What the hell does he know about HEAT ?

I think that sums it up pretty well....but I might suggest that a proper heat loss is done for the space..and an alternative placement or something even MARGINALLY better than a blower unit should be installed.(even on its own zone Brad!)

Let the pigeons fly! Chris

Home Depot Employee

Perhaps the cabinet guy is the designer and he needed the wall space

Can't have too much countertop in a functioning kitchen.

bill nye_3

toe kick

Maybe some radiant in-floor?

I think under cabinet heaters can and do work, But.., as stated it may not be compatible with the cast iron zone in the rest of the house. The cast heats up slower and gives off heat longer. The toe kick blower comes on when it is hot and stops as soon as it cools down. Cools quicker than the cast so you may have a cool kitchen.

It would work better as a seperate zone or if the rest of the house was copper/aluminum fin tube. JMO

J.C.A._3

If

Momma ain't happy...no-one's happy.

I love to cook too, but not in a cold kitchen.

I have to repair these things occasionally...and don't like them 1 bit...not even a little one. Noisy, dry and usually unattainable to service and repair, are just the beginning.

Improper piping and installed in places where they just shouldn't be, also come to mind.(makes perfect places for all kinds of nasties to go fourth and propagate...warm...can't be cleaned well...both spaces and units I might add ...and there is sometimes FOOD! Or even worse..in bathrooms! Add humidity...makes its own gravy and the fungi can multiply exponentially).

I'm sorry...I can't think of 1 good thing to say about toe/kick space heaters. Just my take...but what do I know? Chris.

Russell L. Hill Jr.

Part of the business

I’m sorry and no disrespect intended but all that you complain about is all part of this business!

J.C.A._3

You got it Bill.

Russell, I ain't complaining, I'm just dead set against using them...if it can be avoided. Capise? Chris

D107

was just advised to use Runtal unit by wallies

for similar problem. small kitchen remodel, old CI rad has to go (it's output is 5x room heat loss) due to space requirements. I could get old cast iron rads made to size by oldcastironradiators.com OR get a runtal vertical panel or column made to order --some units are double output 5" deep. Due to high pressure drop of unit and since kitchen rad is first in run of series piped rads, runtal advised me to run a monoflo type loop off the main loop, using a set valve to restrict the flow to the Runtal unit to 10% and adjust until it heats just right.

Good luck,

David

Russell L. Hill Jr.

Yes

no disrespect intended

Tombig_2

Toe Space Heaters

Geez guy's, all Rod did was ask for a little help. Of course the cabinet salesman oversimplified the whole scenario in the interest of a better kitchen, which is what Rod is looking for.

I assume the 44" dimension of Rod's cast iron radiator is the height which means it's probably not below a window and eats up very desirable wall space for a remodeled kitchen. Our job is to come up with a scenario where he can have his custom kitchen AND be warm. Kickspace heaters are one way to do this. The Btuh ratings of those little guys are pretty high....when the boiler is running, AND the temps are correct, AND the heat loss of the area is comparable to the rest of the house, AND the piping/pumping system is compatible with the delivery needed over a normal cycle time, and....... Rod, I think you might be starting to get the picture. Some old piping configurations like yours probably is do not lend themselves to just killing a big radiator with 1" tappings and replacing with a small fan coil unit like a toe kick heater. Cast iron radiators hold their heat and comfort long after the boiler has been satisfied by it's thermostat. Do you have more than one thermostat now? Fan forced coils are kind of more on-off like a light switch.

All proffesionals who responded to you are right. What the cabinet salesman doesn't realize is that it will take a heating pro to tell you whether or not it will work as planned without major peripheral work. To an architect it's just a line on paper. To a general contractor it's just "let's move it over there". To a cabinet salesperson it's no problem of course. He doesn't realize the thousands it might cost you to repipe the boiler, repipe to the toe heater, add controls, and all the other things that might be involved to keep your kitchen as comfy as it was.

Notice I said "might". You need a heating pro to assess the situation and give you some straight answers about the non-pro cabinet guys proposal. We all hope you have a cozy, modern kitchen when it's over.



Best of luck, Tom G

J.C.A._3

David,

If Bill's idea wouldn't support the load,and there wasn't space for a similar radiator that the house is using,your given solution would have been my other choice.

As I said...anything to avoid a fan/blower unit in my house...or my customers, if possible. Chris

Russell L. Hill Jr.

Thank you

Thank you

Russell L. Hill Jr.

who's Bill

Dear J.C.A.

At best I can figure the Bill that you refer to is the Science Guy. Am I correct?

Take care.

RLHJ

J.C.A._3

Yep.

He just gave in...and calls himself "The Science Guy" now.

Check out his email and you'll understand. JCA

Russell L. Hill Jr.

Thanks

As Iceman says to Maverick in Top Gun! You can be my wing man anytime. We all know that Maverick is the better pilot. Maverick says to Ice you can be mine. Your Maverick.

Keep up the good work. I hope that our interaction has given you some insight as to who I am. I also hope that if you have questions in the realm that I hold a supreme knowledge such as yours, I am able to help you in the future.

RLHJ

ScottMP

I agree with Chris

I guess thats why we work together

Toespace would be my last choice for a heationg emitter. There are other choices that I would try before "giving up" and going for a toespace.

Runtal or Buderus panels work great and can be incoperated into a cast iron system if done right.

If your stuck using the toespace than definatly go for a seperate zone. Toespaces ( for the reasons Brad gave ) do not play well with a large mass cast iron system.

Go Pats

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brad White

Chris-

I never said I liked toe-kick heaters... I was just explaining how to make them work at all. The heat loss was stipulated. I agree with Scott- they are a last resort.

"Toe-Kick Heater" comes from the Latin meaning, "Engineer Gave Up at This Point".

GansDitrixGanher

toe kick heater in house with electric heat?

I am interested in this topic because we too are redoing our kitchen and want to put cabinets on a wall with a heat register. However, our situation is a little different in that we have electric baseboard heat throughout the house with each room being a separate 'zone'. Would you recommend a toe kick heater in this situation or is there an alternative? Thank you!

Brad White_185

You may want to

post this as a "New Topic" to get you the specific attention you deserve. That said, if you have electric baseboard heat throughout, adding a toe-kick heater is missing a greater opportunity, IMHO.

Sure, you can get a toe-kick heater but it has to be connected to something. If you stay with electric heat, yes, you can get an electric toe-kick heater. Your only gain is the retention of heat with limited wall space. Sort of a sideways move but otherwise necessary if you are losing wall space.

You can add a HW boiler which will increase your comfort and probably save you energy costs. Depending on where you live and your rate (you may have a special electric heating rate), you may choose to replace the system entirely.

GansDitrixGanher

thanks for the response, but as I'm investing in a new kitchen right now, revamping my heating system is a little out of my budget! I think I'll call a local electrician to get their input and not rely on my cabinet salesman! Thank you!