A couple of jobs WW

ScottMP

I'm confused about the piping though ?

Can you explain the feed and return that appear to be connected ? What am I missing ? It looks like oyur feed is connected to the return ??

Scott

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Wayco Wayne_2

My camera

holds about 500 pics and I don't always take the time to download them. Here's a couple of pics from jobs I did lately. The first one Robey replaced an old cast iron boiler. The customer added an addition with a radiant floor and new radiators upstairs. The old system is a monoflo tee system to convector radiators. WW

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Wayco Wayne_2

Another job

A forced air company had told these customers they needed a new boiler because they couldn't figure out what was wrong with the old cast iron boiler. They actually left them without heat for several days. A friend recommended me and I got them going right away. The only thing wrong was a bad aquastat. The following Summer they asked for an upgrade. I was glad to oblige.

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Wayco Wayne_2

I assume

you're asking about the Harding pic. The Prestige 110 model has a circulator inside the cabinet. So the Supply does return to the return to form a primary loop for the system circulator to draw from. The larger Prestige models do not have a circulator inside them. There isn't room in the cabinet. WW

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tim smith

Nice looking piping Wayne

one thing I noticed, the relief valve is suppose to be mounted in vertical position on a boiler? Horizontally they are concerned about sediment build up against valve seat.

Wayco Wayne_2

Thank you Tim

I didn't know that. I like having the auto air vent there. I guess I could just pu an elbow to turn it up or somthing. WW

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tim smith

Yes, that is what is to be done

Use an elbow and then to code. Nice work although. One last thing, you might want to look at the capacity of those gas flexes, they have high pressure drops for these neg pressure gas controls, this can effect your combustion.

Derheatmeister

Confused about the Prestige piping, I see to pumpen in series, I do not see a Truth Pri/sec config.Maybe i am missing something.Richard from Heatmeister. HM

Wayco Wayne_2

It's really

a 2 pipe system with a bypass for the boiler circulator. Works great. WW

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Derheatmeister

I try to understand,But still see two pumps in series,Plus pumping from the "Boiler pump into the Expansion tank,am i missing something??

Derheatmeister

I try to understand,But still see two pumps in series,Plus pumping from the "Boiler pump into the Expansion tank,am i missing something??

Derheatmeister

Sorry for double post!

scott markle_2

I also had a hard time understanding this piping arrangement,( aware of the internal circ.) What thru me off was the unusual positioning and distance between the P/S t's. I guess you decided that the recommended 12'' max between T's was not important. The way I understand it T's should be spaced closely to permit mixing of flows dependent on differences between primary and secondary flow rates. In other words the flow direction in the leg of pipe between the t's can actually move in two directions, it will permit some flow in reverse direction of the secondary circulator flow, essentially recirculating part of the primary flow back to the boiler. This would only happen when primary is greater than secondary. This is important for a boiler that requires a minimum flow rate or where min. return temperatures apply. The mixing tempers return water and ensures min. flow rates regardless of what is happening on the secondary side. With condensing boilers when P>S this tempering can be undesirable because it raises return temperatures and lowers condensing efficiency. I'm wondering if your larger than standard spacing might have a beneficial effect in that it will make primary recirculation hydraulically quite difficult. I know that the TT is quit tolerant of low flow rates, did you consider just piping it directly.

Nice looking job. Is that skull part of you company branding? I like it, but I could imagine that some conservative types might be unsettled by this symbol on their combustion equipment.

Wayco Wayne_2

I'll try to explain

The Supply line leaves the boiler and runs through the air eliminator. It then enters a tee. The pipe leaving the tee going down returns to the boiler. The pipe going up goes up into the suction side of the system circulator and out into whichever zone valve is calling, or both if the case may be. What ever water leaves the boiler loop in this fashion is replaced by the water coming back the return. I don't need close tees because I have zone valves and a check valve on the circ preventing any thermosiphoning or induced flow. I hope this helps.

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scott markle_2

Expansion tank position

I have always been a bit uncertain about the point of zero pressure thing. For me it's also not so clear how the combined effect of the pumps/flows will effect the relative pressures within the pipe work.

Air illumination is is best in low pressure high temperature zones, However negative pressures (if they go bellow atmospheric) can actually draw gasses into the system thru these vents.

As far as expansion tank placement Why do you think Viessman specifically instructs placement downstream of circ.? Contrary to pump away convention.

Viessman Schematic attached

scott markle_2

Helpful

Wane, I'm thinking that if flow rates are matched correctly there should be no downward flow in the first T. Primary>(or equal to)secondary should be adhered to in condensing P/S applications to avoid raised return temps. It would depend on the head pressures of the connected zones and how many are operating, But ideally the secondary pump should induce a flow that is greater than the boiler, this would mean that the boiler flow all goes up the first T. joined it from below would be the difference in these flow, basically recirculated secondary flow. Temperatures at various locations will tell the story of what is happening in the pipes. The temperature bellow the first T (supply side) should be more in line with the return then the supply. Your returns coming from opposite directions of that first T on the return could create a difference in the way these zones interact, I think they probably should have joined the return at the same location. As it is now it seems that it will be easer for the vertical return leg to recirculate within the secondary loop than it will for the return coming from the left. Are those Viega valves? what speed do you have the boiler circ. at, this will have a big impact on which direction the water between those T's will flow in. The reason for putting T's close as I understand it it that it permits to some extent a two directional flow within that section of pipe.

Derheatmeister

Circ.

That circ that is shown in the pic ,is that a 15/58 ?

scott markle_2

Derheatmeidter, no comment on the Viessmann schematic ? That german handle should obligate you to comment on this anomaly of fatherland hydronics.

Derheatmeister

scott

Scott the internal circ on the 110 prestige is a " rotated flanged" 15/58.!!

Derheatmeister

Yes i Pump back into the return on the Viessmanns as well, and i do not on the prestige which i mostly pipe in pri/sec config.(sec side is mostly 26/99 for rad retro jobs) As for the Viessmann i remember asking this at a Viessmann class and i think it has something to do with the pressure drop across the heatexchanger (DO NOT Quote ME ON THIS.it will be better to call Viessmann direct). I always use the "Lowloss" Hydroseparator, and never had any problems with this setup.

Wayco Wayne_2

My thinking is

that if only one zone valve opens the head pressure of that circuit will probably be high enough to somewhat split the flow through the supply tee. The prestige HX isn't as needy of flow as some of the other mod cons but why chance starving it. The outdoor reset curve is set so most of the time it's condensing anyways. Customers gas bills are 30% down from last year. Life is good. WW

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scott markle_2

Wane, so when one zone is operating you expect some primary recirculation, and when both are open perhaps not? I may be making more of raised return temps than really maters. It just seems to me that we will get the best performance if we can design for high deltas and not dilutte them with unfavorable P/S flow mixing. If the customer is reporting 30% improvement thats awesome. Life is Good

Derheatmeister

Again. is'nt that a 15/58 ?

Derheatmeister

wayne 30 % savings is great! overall operational savings is better.

Wayco Wayne_2

Scott

I agree it would be mo better if we had the widest delta t possible, but the 2 zones of heat emitters are 3/4 copper fin baseboard with considerable length. This bypass set up gives me peace of mind for flow through the HX, and most of the time we are at or below condensing temps anyways because of the outdoor re-set. I have Prestige jobs where there are converted gravity systems with big cast iron rads and 2 to 3 inch suply and return pipes. On those I take advantage of the lack of resistance to flow and pipe the Prestige straight up supply and return with no bypass. The big cast iron rads really make a mod con shine. I was at one house where we were a little below design temps outside and the mod con was maintaining 70 degrees inside with 140 degree water leaving the boiler. WW

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Rob Blair

Hangers and clamps

Hey Wayne,

Love the painted background. I try to do something similar for all jobs.

BTW: You should check out ARGCO.COM. They sell a variety of clamps and fittings that really make the job look sweet. Especially nice are the spiral duct clamps for attaching your expansion tank.

Check them out.

Rob