Cost to remove/install a Peerless 63-06

A.J.

you are not buying a car. One Chevy van from Pittsburgh is the exact same thing as one Chevy van from Boston they all come from GM. Contractors are not a commodity there is a wide range of talent and knowledge involved. If some of the better contractors in your area are saying it will cast 2*X and someone comes along it will cost X it should make you wounder I loose bids all the time usually because the contractor that got the sale short changed the customer by any number of ways.
Just remember that it is not only gas prices that are high these days.

John_201

Cost to remove/install a steam boiler

Okay, I know that many of you guys are professionals and might not want to undermine the sales efforts of a colleague. But I imagine many would be willing to be more candid about this:

This old Peerless G-860 boiler needs replacement. It looks as if the Peerless 63-06 would be the appropriate size (though I haven't physically sized the system yet; you can bet I will do that to verify or get a pro to do it). I've asked some professionals to price out the boiler's replacement. The two who have responded have said it will be well over $10,000.

I have done boiler system removal (dismantling and removal of all piping and radiators in some large homes) and I have done gas furnace removal and installation (imagine 50 feet up in a manlift juggling massive pipe wrenches and 300-pound furnaces), things like that. I have never done a steam boiler installation, but I have done large-equipment installations before, and I think I anticipate the scale of the technical work for this job. I see: removal of the old boiler (one day, two guys); placing the new boiler (some assembly required); going back to at least the unions on the piping, and measuring out and fitting some new pipe; and doing the wiring, testing, adjustments. I'm already pretty familiar with all of the control devices on these systems (M&M LWCO, Honeywell Pressuretrol, M&M 101 feeder, arcana on a White-Rodgers thermostat including setting anticipation, concerns about venting and pitch).

I've seen the 63-06 boiler for around $3,600 retail. I think $7,000, for what it appears should take me and a pipefitter friend of mine a couple of days (okay, maybe three or four to be safe), just doesn't seem to add up. Furthermore, if I can find this boiler at retail for $3,600, that means that the pros are getting it wholesale for about $2,000-$2,500, so we may be talking about close to $9,000 for labor and parts, everything but the boiler itself. That seems quite excessive. What is an appropriate charge for this level of work? What price should I be negotiating toward?

I'd rather not hear too many stories about company reputation, peace of mind, value of my own time. That's the whole point here: I can evaluate that myself, and it simply doesn't add up to $7,000 to $9,000 for such a job.

JBee_3

$

Shop around.

NRTDave

Don't Accept any bid over

$3000. or you are being ripped off!!!

DanHolohan

Peter,

it seems to me that you've already decided what the job is worth, how much a contractor should be making, and how much you're willing to pay. Your next step should be to find someone to do the job for your price. Negotiate toward that number. There's really no need to take it any further here.

ed wallace

bids

ann how can you say dont accept a bid over $3000.00 you havent seen the job ever boiler install is differant

Tom Hopkins

Peter

GO AWAY!!!

jp_2

Joe

who gives you such the right here?

DanHolohan

Joe,

there's no need to be rude. Like you, Peter is a guest here. Thanks.

jp_2

Dan

I've looked all over this site, I haven't seen the comment "prices not discussed". can you direct it to me?

How does a new comer know all this? seems new comer bashing is a poor reflection on this industry.

How can you discuss technologies without some discussion of true cost of these technologies(Not labor costs, technology costs)?

few people have bottomless pockets and costs are true factor of life, heating or eating.....

DanHolohan

jp,

I've asked many times on the Wall that people not talk prices because it almost always leads to conflict. It begins with someone pricing a piece of equipment in a store and then getting a price from a contractor. The shopper will then often decide that the price is too high, based on the shopper's sense of what the contractor should be making, even though the shopper has no sense of what it costs for the contractor to be in business.

From there, the thread turns into a free-for-all - who makes how much, what a man's work is worth, and on and on. It's tiring.

So I ask that people not discuss prices here. I don't see the need for rules at the front door. We're all adults. I do my best to be polite in asking people not to talk price when I see that it's going that way. I try to treat the people who visit here as I would treat guests at dinner.

And I agree that people don't have bottomless pockets. If a shopper gets a price from a contractor and decides that that price is too high, the shopper should continue to shop. It serves no purpose for him to come here, give the contractor's price, complain that it's too high, and look for support. And should he get support, my guess is that if he takes it back to the contractor, the price will still still be the same. No one here can lower the price for the shopper, and no one here can determine the contractor's price. The shopper needs to keep shopping, and the contractor needs to find another customer.

Make sense?

DanHolohan

Ed,

I suspect the tongue is in the cheek.

John_201

Value

Dan, with all due respect, if the question of value is so hotly debated here, it must be a point of great interest to many people on this board. Obviously, price is a huge factor in anyone's decisions.

The only people who may be defensive about this would appear to be those who feel they need protection for one reason or another. Isn't robust debate the reason we have forums like yours? Don't you want the full story on all issues? Why squelch it merely because of conflict?

If people want to direct their comments to me privately, please write me at pete [at] zelchenko [dot] com. The fact that the only two bids I've received are over $10,000 concerns me. On the other hand, I would definitely disagree that $3,000 is a reasonable amount, because the boiler would cost me $3,600 (I'm willing to pay such a wholesale markup to the contractor) and the contractor will need to have guys doing this work. I'd be willing to pay $2,000 or $2,500 to have the job done over and above the cost of the equipment, based on my reasonably good knowledge about how much effort and expertise this kind of work can involve. That's a good sum of money that would include shipping, hauling, pipefitting, testing, chimney work, business, etc. Therefore, $6,000 I feel is a reasonable price. Certainly not $10,000.

It troubles me that such high estimates are the norm. It is cartel-like in how common it is. I don't believe in the value system as it is practiced in such a complex market economy. The only people who will know better are those who take a lot of time to study the situation, as I have. We're not shopping for tomatoes here: we are onto a very complicated value proposition, involving built-in markups on trim for boilers, possible duplicated markups, anomalies in perceived value, and many other things.

Only someone who prices this kind of thing regularly will recognize an unreasonable price. For such a large rare purchase, we need the democratic process of the Internet to help guide us. That is why I disagree with Dan that his excellent forum is not the place to discuss value; indeed, it is perhaps the only place available to us for this purpose.

I am not worried about myself; I am an unusually sophisticated buyer. (I just talked Honeywell's VP of technical into a corner about their own knowledge.) I'm also not worried about rich people. I really worry about the old folks who could be paying exorbitant costs, and I also worry about the waste in the system: the bigger the ticket, the higher the profit and the greater the potential waste. Maybe an old boiler can survive a few more years; maybe a simple and fixable problem should cost a couple hundred dollars, but it's easier just to quote out $10,000 and be done with it. I've seen this happen in numerous industries, not only HVAC.

If we all can be civil and tolerant of differing viewpoints, why not allow a discussion of value?

DanHolohan

Thanks, Peter.

You make you point well, and I respect that. I hope that you'll respect the points that I made in my reply to jp.

We don't discuss prices of individual jobs on the Wall. Thanks for your understanding, and your cooperation.

jp_2

Dan

I do agree, for the most part.

but you can't deny we live in a price driven economy.

whoever pays full price for a new car,house,drive down the road where the gas is 2 cents cheaper?

ever wait til that big flat screen goes "on sale"?

ever buy the slightly brown bananas cause they are at a great price and taste better than the full priced green ones?

but on this web site labor costs are worthless.

most guys here really poop poop the lower bidder, how many people would scream if the local school building used the high bidder?

John_201

Thanks, Dan

Thanks, Dan. In that event, I'm going to start a separate topic to discuss the general question of approximately how many man-hours it should take to perform a removal and installation job, and what is involved. This is for the benefit of those who may not understand what is involved. I'm not interested in going into hourly rates. Perhaps we may all be persuaded that it can be worth as much as some say it is worth.

Again, thanks.

GW

you can't treat contractors like they're a commodity

JP, the only heating contractor that will negotiate with this type of mentality as their core business model is one with a skid row, washed up, doesn't-give-a-crap mindset.

Although I'm pretty sure there are some completely stupid heating contractors out there, I'm just not sure how many of them know how to type, hence their participation in this forum is not likely.

You are not going to find the answers you're looking for here, but hey, everyone is welcome to at least try.


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Keith_8

Peter

Why not continue to get quotes until you feel comfortable that the contractor can justify his price to you?

If you have to skill set to determine what our trade is worth then it shouldn't be a problem.

Spend as much time as necessary to feel comfortable that you are not being taken advantage of.

I can assure you that not one of us here that participates in this forum ever earned 1 dollar more than the customer we did the work for felt we deserved. Because if they felt we were not worth the price quoted we would not have been awarded the project. We live in a free market and could not survive by ripping people off.

It seems to me what you really want is someone to moon light the boiler installation. If that is what you want then say it. I'm sure you can go to the local supply house , get a couple names and you will be good to go.

Don't insult my intelligence by claiming your motives are to defend the old ladies.

Keith

Leo_9

Man hours and prices

I can see the reason to keep prices off the board. This board covers the whole country and beyond. In my own state prices vary from one area to another especially wages. Given that if someone is given a price based on the workers receiving X an hour and another based on 2X an hour that could cause a lot of negative debate. Yet each rate is a going and fair rate for the area it is from. Now how many man hours is a different and more realistic comparison. It takes a given amount of time to do a given task. This is a good way to shop also, why do you take longer. Because I take my time and do a neat and level piping job. I clean up after myself. I add extras such as this this and that. That is the area of negotiation. You decide what you want and the contractor decides if he will sacrifice his usual quality to meet your request. It may not be as exactly as I have stated but I hope you get my point.

Leo

jp_2

what?

???????????????

GW

I said

JP, the only heating contractor that will negotiate with this type of mentality as their core business model is one with a skid row, washed up, doesn't-give-a-crap mindset.

Although I'm pretty sure there are some completely stupid heating contractors out there, I'm just not sure how many of them know how to type, hence their participation in this forum is not likely.

You are not going to find the answers you're looking for here, but hey, everyone is welcome to at least try.



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jp_2

whatever..............

Scott Kneeland

Overhead

Peter I understand your view looking in from the outside. Think about these things before you decide to try this your self. are you getting a building permit? do you have the proper training to perform the job safely and correctly, do you have all the proper inventory available to complete the installation, do you have the proper insurance coverage if this goes bad, who will service it when it is complete, do you have the proper trade license. I could list things all day. This is what is in the price not just a boiler. Remember this profession ain't a hobby.

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Bob_102

Everyone here keeps telling you to hire the contractor who you feel is most competent or capable of doing the job, Contractors also need to shop the jobs, if they feel that the customer is relentless they just may price themselves to make you look elsewhere. Keep looking Peter, you will eventually find someone who is willing to put up with you're scrutiny at a better price.

Jim Pompetti

Prices

We make our living ,on the low bidder mistakes . Week after week we visit homes, where heating equipment has been install wrong . Most of the time,by the low bid guy or a friend of the home owner . More then once the installer has told me " I did not bid it to be installed than way"(By the instruction). The cost of a correctly in stall systems , cannot be decided over the internet . I need to see what has to be done and how to do it. The cost of doing business is more then mark up ,and the wage paid to employees . Someone, said peace of mind should not be discussed .Tell that to the guy with no heat on a cold Janurary night.

Derheatmeister

YES TO BOB G

I (As a self Protection) Sometimes make Potential Customers GO AWAY! or should i say it this way :The ones that are ether Stuck in the Past:That's how much i payed for this House 40 years ago........or the ones that are not in touch with the reality of doing Business and or what to charge!....... Am i right in assuming that PETER does not own his own business????!!! If so, than why are we having this????...Maybe since you already know what is involved you should pop a couple of beers and hopefully install this replacement!!! Enjoy.Richard from Heatmeister.

Timco

Maybe you should pay for liability insurance, buy all the tools, pay for a license, open the types of accounts that would LEGALLY allow you to buy a boiler, buy a combustion analyzer, buy any and all other specialty tools for this job, crawl your own self in places many would not dare go, expose yourself to the stuff found in old & new plumbing, learn and pay for all the needed cert classes to know just what you are doing, and see how much it would cost you and what you would want for a return on such an investment? Your numbers are unreasonable, and you will get what you are wanting to pay for. You will also be missing out on many great innovations and gadgets that the low bid guy does not know exist or has taken off the bid to make you happy. This type of 'low price justification' really offends me and I would have to pass on your job, period. As for discussing price, I have always found that a request to discuss price privately is always answered and discussed through email off the wall. Dan's house, Dan's rules.

Tim

larry_51

peter

Every thing peter has written offends me. Of all the humans on this planet there is a very finite number who would attempt this project. Out of that very finite number there are even less who can do it right. What peter is having trouble getting his head around is the law of supply and demand. I pay $3.25 a gallon for gas because demand is infinite and supply is limited. The scrap guy is going to pay $0.60 a lb for the old boiler because demand is for steele is high and the supply is limited. Look we all know what will happen, peter and his "pipefitter" friend or some moonlighter or some low bidder will do this job. Then peter will be forced to call a knowledgable proffesional to come pick up the peices. When all is said and done, peter will have paid the same amount as his original estimate or more but in two checks instead of one. Around here we love these guys. peter thanks for the job security and all the tuition.

billy_7

Peter

Peter,
Does your price of $3,600 include all near boiler piping, low water cut-off, feeder, pressuretrol etc... There are a lot of extras that go with a steam boiler that add up fast. Get a price on 2" steel pipe that would be needed to build the header for this boiler, then add fittings to properly pipe the boiler, hartford loop etc...

There are a host of specialty tools that are involved with cutting and threading this type of pipe as well. The cost of these tools runs in the 1,000's of dollars.

You also have to remember the contractors other costs salaries, fuel for the trucks,truck payments, the cost to have a shop, insurance for the company and employees, back office costs etc...

I understand what you are getting at, but you can't look at an installation as the contractor is paying his guys $25.00 per hour and there are say 50 man hours involved in this type of change out therefore $1,250 is his only cost and you are giving him $1,750 profit.

I understand what you are driving at, but I guarantee that at the end of the day these contractors net profit is a lot lower than you think it is.

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Great way of putting it Larry

It seems he knows more than everyone else. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Well said,,

and as Jim Pompetti said, we have a nice niche "redoing" these "hack" jobs. Mad Dog

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Scott Kneeland

Peter

I only have one last thing to add.
"If it was easy everyone would do it"

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[Deleted User]

Bite the bullet Peter...

There are two ways to do steam work.

The first way, is the RIGHT way. The second way is over, and over, and over again...

You are no where near being correct in your assumptions of labor estiamtes, and the skill sets required to do the job right in the first place. You have your mind set for what you are willing to pay to get done what you think is necessary, and it doesn't appear that you will be changing your mind in the near future.

So, with that mind set in place, go out and find yourself someone who is willing to do what YOU want done, then when everything goes to hell in a hand basket, you will have to pay extra to get the mess straightened out, and you will end up paying significantly more than you WOULD have paid a qualified contractor to do the work in the first place. However, in the time between start up of your design, and start up of the correct design, you and your tenants will suffer through sleepless nights of hammering, banging and a host of other problems that comes with people like yourself trying to cut corners to save a few bucks, to say nothing of the fuel you will waste in the process.

So, the decision is completely yours. Do it wrong, and save money, or do it again, and again, and again.

Now, if you REALLY want to spend your money wisely, you would hire someone like Steamhead, or Big Jim Pompetti to come to your place and have them design the proper replacement for your scenario. You can then take those concrete specificiations out to anyone capable of burning and turning and let them loose on your project knowing that they at least have a road map to success. There is still no guarantee of a perfectly completed project, but if your installers can at least read and install piping per a given diagram, the chances of you having to undo a bunch of work is substantially lessened.

It's IS your money, and bottom line it IS your decision. But as for coming on here and asking if its is a fair price, you are wasting your time, and the time of all the people reading this thread.

Do it right the first time, and save yourself a lot of time and trouble.

I have customers just like you, and I echo the sentiments of everyone else. You will decide to do it YOUR way, and will probably just "live with it". Too much pride to admit that you didn't do it right. Very few of those customers who low ball it come crawling back to us and ask us to "FIX" their debacle. They just live with their decision for life, and those people around them end up suffering the most because of those decisions.

Buck up and do the right thing the first time. you won't regret it. Especially with steam.

Respectfully,

Mark Eatherton

PS, If you really think it's so simple and easy, go into business for yourself. And if you do, stick around here, because you have a LOT to learn.

ME

GW

well

it sure does look easy....once we're done.

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Bob Bona_4

and

that's the sign of a pro- making it look easy.

Roland_4

$$$ ?

"Nowadays, people know the price of everything and the value of nothing" Oscar Wilde-1891

Timco

Maybe he went on priceline and william shatner told him what to pay for a boiler install. I can just hear capt kirk telling him, "lower, lower, pansy..." Just type in the price you want to pay for a boiler and they find the 'installer'...

Tim