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CSST

Earth ground jumpers appear to be missing...

ME

Comments

  • Tony Shupenko
    Tony Shupenko Member Posts: 54
    CSST - I've heard of some horror stories

    on the installation of this system, especially with respect to fireplaces. Yesterday, I saw somthing I am particularly concerned about. 1st pic shows overall CSST from origination in basement - note exposed metal at connection. 2nd and 3rd pics (3rd is close-up) shows view up the former fireplace clean-out - exposed metal again. I know this indicates unprofessional/unlicensed workmanship. From my limited knowledge, there are also some specific requirements for fireplace installations. Any comments?
    Photobucket

    Photobucket
    Photobucket
    Regards,
    Tony

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  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,039


    You have to expose the metal at the connection. That run really needs support by the water heater. The metal you speak of is fine.

    Tim
    Just a guy running some pipes.
  • Tony Shupenko
    Tony Shupenko Member Posts: 54
    I've gone to continuing education seminars

    that have told us that the metal is supposed to be wrapped afrer a connection is made (or the yellow wrap not cut back too far) - the stainless steel tube is not to be exposed.

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  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 914


    The CSST installation should be installed per the mfrs. lited instructions and the gas code. The listings of these usually allow CSST to be run into the firebox as long as you peel the plastic back and there is not direct flame impingement on the line. I have news for you: I see licensed plumbers doing a lot worse than this so you cannot make such a generalization based upon what you see.

    There is a way to run a gas line into the fireplace without forming a trap by looping down through the ash dump--drill through the wall into the ash pit so the line runs level. There should be a sediment trap where it taps into the house riser.

    You cannot use CSST for log lighters but you can for most gas log burners. As long as the shutoff is readily accessible, serves only that appliance and is tagged, it meets the IFGC. NFPA 54 still requires shutoff in same room within 6 feet of fireplace.
    Bob
  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,039


    There may be a limit on how much pipe to expose, but you have to cut the jacket back to make the connection...It also needs to be supported by the water heater... look here...

    Tim

    http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/downloads.asp
    Just a guy running some pipes.


  • Stainless steel exposed depends on the CSST. I prefer to use Gastite because the jacket is tucked inside the fitting and no steel can be seen. I've run CSST through the ashtrap, but notched and sealed the cleanout door. I also seal where the tubing comes up into the fireplace with insulation and a thin layer of cement.

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  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    ?!?

    Too, what's with two shut-offs in series?
    And where's pride in workmanship? Sigh...

    While CSST has its place, LONG LIVE BLACK IRON! (guess I'm an old buzzard, though I like to pretend I'm a traditionalist)
  • I agree with Scrook

    It should be black. CSST cost more than black and you can put nails through it, or cut through it with a sawzall. I know one contractor that the finish carpenters put 14 holes in the system and it was propane. The propane is heavier than air, so the gas collected in the basement, but luckily they also had Radon, so their radon removal system also removed the propane gas from the house, the people went through a whole tank of propane in a week or two. After carbon monoxide, natural or propane gas is probably the most dangerous thing in the house, it deserves black pipe.
    Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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  • Rich Kontny_3
    Rich Kontny_3 Member Posts: 562
    Generalizations

    Guess what I have seen heating companies run it this way also.

    There is bad workmanship and improper installs out there by not only DIYs but so called professionals. Obviously a third party inspection was not part of the equation.

    They sell this material at Menards and I doubt if certification is a pre-requisite. I cannot purchase Trac Pipe without a certification number.

    Don't quite get that licensed plumber comment Mr. Harper,that seems to be a pretty broad swipe comment.

    Wait until there is a problem and the insurance companies and attorneys start looking for the deep pockets, then perhaps the DIY centers and those who sell this material without certifications will wake up.

    The grounding issue is the result of lawsuits against the manufacturers of CSST and the lightning issues. They lost this lawsuit and have a remediation solution that is being offered to contractors. Seems CSST turns to powder if it is hit by lightning without proper grounding to protect it. Most inspectors have caught up to this requirement.

    Three things come to mind with this picture.

    1.Poor and dangerous workmanship (by whoever)

    2.Choice and source of CSST

    3.Obvious lack of permits and proper third party
    inspection.

    There are far too many of these improper and dangerous installs out there. Even I as a master plumber can see that.
    (Of course somehow I found time to be certified by Wardflex,Trac Pipe and Gastite. Imagine that Mr. Harper)

    I may seem a little touchy here and truth be known I am.The implication is that licensed plumbers don't know how to install CSST.Without certification from the manufacturer of the CSST you are using, NO One should install CSST!

    Rich K.
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 914


    I agree with most of what ya'll are saying. Certification and licensure do not guarantee installations. Also, anyone can buy black iron and copper without any credentials. I don't see anyway to police such installations. If they don't want to pull permits or the jurisdiction does not want to be bothered with such a small installation, it will slip through the system. We in the hearth industry are trying very hard to educate our retailers, their installers and service techs. continually. Actually, the codes enforcement community has proven surprisingly weak in this area, so we've developed educational materials and programs for them.
    Bob
  • jim lockard
    jim lockard Member Posts: 1,059
    I do not know ME

    That CSST could be bonded back thru the black iron. As for the yellow jacket the wardflex book says that it can be removed completely should one wish to do so. J.Lockard
    PS I will admit the install looks bad.
  • Rich Kontny_3
    Rich Kontny_3 Member Posts: 562
    opposite

    Here in Wisconsin we have strong codes. They are uniformly applicable throughout the state. Only can be improved by local tweaking (add-ons)

    Yes enforcement is a problem which feeds the hands of the unlicensed,the non insured and the do-it-all handymen.We are working on that as an industry.Certifications for different manufacturers are important as their respective jointing methods are different. Black pipe jointing has been around and does not differ.
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