emision

GLENN_14

I am all for getting some regulations in the indusry... that is part of our problem now... we need the true professionals to step up and be heard. part of the problem is the big box industry that does not want to lose their portion of the market which would most likely happen if the regulations became a reality.......

Derheatmeister

I do not understand why is it the government mandates the automobiles must pass emissions but heating system do not have to.Can someone explain this?

Derheatmeister

Anybody???

DanHolohan

I believe

it's because we have more cars than heating systems. It's just the opposite in Europe, and that's why they put so much focus on the heating systems.

Doug_7

Efficiency of Heating Buildings

In North America, governments do not take the efficiency of heating buildings very seriously and are not very inclined to regulate. This is despite the fact that the heating of buildings accounts for at least 40% of total greenhouse gas emissions.

The majority of governments in North America do not yet take greenhouse gas emissions and climate change very seriously - they are mostly still in the denial phase.

In Europe, goverments are well awate of the linkage between the efficiency of heating buildings and greenhouse gas emissions and climate change.

I am cautiously optimistic that this will soon begin to change in North America. The efficiency of heating buildings is a huge opportunity to improve the environment and the economy.

Derheatmeister

Yes, People do not mind taking Public Transportation it's really nice. But they also have Emission Laws for there automobiles as well(Assu).Do you think that the gov. should Mandate Emission law's with Heating systems,Like in Germany where the Chimney Sweep comes every year and can "RED TAG" you system? Just thinking ahead if i should buy stock in a Combustion analyzer company....

[Deleted User]

Realistic

"I am cautiously optimistic that this will soon begin to change in North America."

As am I, but don't expect "soon" to be before January 20, 2009.

Doug_7

Heating Efficiency

I do not see the current building heating efficiency situation changing without tighter government regulations. I am referring to building codes which should in my opinion include energy performance standards.

You need to decide if there needs to be a regulation that says that heating systems should be inspected, and ones that honk out CO should be red-tagged.

Doug_7

Soon ?

First the governments attitude has to change - then the regulation can follow. Yes it all takes time.

Most governments don't yet see the opportunity and linkage between building heating efficiency and climate change. This is what I hope will start to change "soon".

Derheatmeister

Yes,To doug,and that in turn will open another industry ,More Inspections.(hopefully by Qualified Inspectors) More Condensing Boilers/Better Circ. Pumps/Windows/Insulation/Combustion Analyzer's/Solar system.and on,and on,if this does not happen then i may rethink investing in respirators. Indoorair Quality systems.and bottled air.

Steve Ebels_3

My humble opinion

Government will never have the guts to force change. Neither will they have the cash to fund any major subsidy programs which would enable Joe Citizen to get some help in making major efficiency improvements. (Witness our economy teetering on the edge of disaster as we speak)

The driving force in efficiency and by association, emissions, will be fuel prices. They are currently right at the cusp of causing financial pain to a large percentage of the general population. When the tipping point occurs (I've said $4.00/ gallon before) you will see a number of things happen. Heating/cooling efficiency of a product or system will become paramount. Alternative fuels will become mainstream. Poorly insulated or older structures which cannot be easily rehabilitated will plunge in value. New construction will be built in ways that we should have been embracing 30 years ago. A service call to ensure peak operating efficiency will be on every home and business owners "to do" list.

JMHO

Derheatmeister

Steve, and what do you think happened in Germany in the 70ties. Fuel was very expensive. which made people switch to the better Equipment.Not only that,By Law you had to have your Heating equipment checked ! Just like our Automobiles over here. But I guess that since German Forest (and back then I've see it) were Affected by Acid rain that may have made people see the light. But wait a minute,one of the sayings that I've learned in America is: the solution to pollution is dilution!

Dave Stroman

I don't know about oil burners, but I always thought that burning gas was, just by it's nature, much cleaner than burning gasoline. Thus, no regulations for the pollution emissions.

Dave Stroman

Derheatmeister

Diesel=Oil

GLENN_14

regulations???? good luck

In a recent article, in one of the plumbing mechanical magazines. I was dismayed to read a large number of contractors from across the united states stating that they could "not afford" to utilize combustion analizers in their area. Many of the high efficiency heating products on the market dictate the need for the use of this equipment in setting up a new installation to insure proper combustion and efficiency even utilizing natural gas. Many contractors sited the competitve nature of their markets as a reason for this. If the industry was better regulated in many states such as licensing, with a requirement for continued training and proper testing capabilities, the industry in general would be much better off.....

Darrell

A Curious American

This is not a thread to bash global warming adherents or any body else for that matter...just curious.

Curious to see if anybody can do an authoritative historical assessment of the rise of the mandated higher efficiency standards by the governments in Europe that would include some ancilary factors. I'm not being antagonistic or snotty, just curious because I do believe that the USA will go the same route as the EU with regards to intrusive,(from an American perspective), inspections and required compliance/upgrades. I'm wondering what to expect and what to prepare for in my business. It would be nice to let the market drive the desired changes, and it would...eventually...but, I don't believe that well-intentioned people and agencies will wait for that to happen.

With the government mandates, grants, and the "new economic oppurtunities" mentioned above was there a coincident rise in the "professional hack" that cashed in on people's ignorance and government grants without doing a craftsman's job that was safe let alone right? You know, like the ones that are ripping off the people who were blown away in Katrina or burned out in California.

Was there a coincident rise in government inspectors that followed the letter of the law, cashed a check, and really didn't provide a viable service, let alone any semblance of convienience or understanding...like the one's that get roasted here so often?

Was there a coincident rise in the death toll from homeowner's trying to do their own efficiency upgrades from the local warehouse store without sufficient knowledge, expertise, or accountability? Like the poor folks who killed themselves with CO that was lamented in a post here not too long ago.

What was the outcry from the populace who were not in favor of the increased governmental oversight? Was the outcry similar to the outcry here in the USA about the "monitoring of international/domestic phone traffic."

Will the process of upgrading per mandate financed by grant be similar to the changeout process and paperwork of the Plexivent recall that none of us wanted to work with?

Were the tradepeople given their marching orders by the government? Did a packet arrive in the mail with a list of contacts to upgrade at a fixed price by a hard date?

How much did the Federal/State/Local beauacracies grow as a result of the needed oversight of the mandated changes?

How much did the tax burden grow to support all of this?

Is there quantifiable, hard data that demonstrates a resonable return for investment at the level of the homes and businesses that will be most affected by these mandates? I'm not talking about evangelistic claims of miraculous energy savings and lifestyle betterment that we read about in so many publications and hear on TV. I'm only asking for hard data...it's easier to sell hard data.

As I said, change is inevitable. It is coming, but we ought to be careful what we wish for...we're likley to get much in the way of unintended consequences. Is there a better way of accomplishing the same end without our government, which is historically the absolute worst at managing anything, getting involved? As honest tradesmen and businesses are we in a postion to effect any change? Or are we condemned to try to survive the change? We are talking, perhaps, about fundamentally changing the way America operates...are we ready to do that? I can't help but wonder why, if the EU is so advanced and leading the way in so many areas of life, (and I'm not arguing that point), why are the lines so long for Euopeans immigrating to the USA? What are we not seeing?



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Derheatmeister

Darrell do you think that the industry can regulate this over the government?

Derheatmeister

Glenn,

Derheatmeister

glenn ,Do you think that the automobile industrie had the same learning curve when Emissions laws had taken effect, oh i do not know maybe in the 70 ties ? did that not separate the "Good from the bad" ?

Darrell

No, in short, I do not. And this is the reason for my thinking.

To date, the industry, (meaning the plumbing, heating, ventilation, and building systems industry), has not been able to do so...I make a lot of money cleaning up after the so-called professionals who take people's money and leave them with a less than fully-functioning, and efficient system.

But, let me also point out, that, to date, government at any level has done very little of substance to effectivly regulate the industry either. In fact, many here would make the point that the government is largely in the way of any substantive progress.

So, the only real driving force for change that I have seen is the knowledgable, willing, homeowner. If the homeowner is willing to pay for, and insist on, the system that he believes he wants and needs, it will be done. It doesn't matter if the percieved want or need is globally environmental, comfort, ease of maintenance, bragging rights, or whatever motivates that particular home owner...it will be done.

And,I'll stick my neck out and say this...if the fear of man induced global warming needs to become a universally accepted motivation for change, then the "evangelistic" approach is no good. Honest, hard data, with reasonable, realizable goals, and demonstrable results will win over enough intelligent people to make the change in the industry that seems to be in order. And it won't violate the fundamental ideals that Americans hold dear.

Then, we in the industry will be able to make a difference, (if we are willing to be the forward thinking, trained, craftsmen that we say we are), because the educated homeowner won't hire the hack, and he'll starve himself out of the phone book.

And, yes, we'll have to get Combustion Analyztion equipment and actually learn about and understand the entire building envelope...not just the envelope with our check in it.

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bob_50

Simple Solution

A combustion analyzer is just an oxygen sensor and a microchip
processor. Large burners have them built in. Oxytrim. Why not mandate that they are built in to every burner. They could be linked to the government by phone lines or satellite. bob

Darrell

And you thought the outcry over the "Bush government monitoring the phones" was bad! Just wait until the media finds out that George Bush, (or whoever), is monitoring their heating equipment! See the posts and national news about California trying to mandate t-stats that some government bean-counter could manipulate for example.

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Darrell

I would submit that my combustion analyzer if far more than just an oxygen sensor and a microchip...it is over 80,000 hours of experience and expertise that knows what those little numbers mean and how to manipulate them for peak efficiency and reliablilty. Show me a government bean-counter looking at a printout a thousand miles from here that can beat that.

And that is exactly what the men who say they can't afford to use the C/A equipment are admitting to...the lack of experience, expertise, and education that it takes to truly analyse a system.

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Derheatmeister

Darrell. I like some of you thinking. I too have too clean up after Hacks every Day, and that is what keep's me very busy . I guess i just do not understand why is it that the gov.powers and the Industrie cannot come up with a serious Programe that will educate are young ones say like a Three year Programe combined with work (Like a real Trade) NOT CLASSES AT Night and doen in one year! Do you think that when these fine young people are "unleashed" into the work Force that would not be a positive Thing? May help set higher standards!

Darrell

My son is apprenticed to the man who, in my opinion, is the most knowledgable, skillful craftsman in the area. He will learn much and become an asset to the industry. The choice to apprentice him to this man was a carefully studied, willful decision. He happens to be the same man that apprenticed me. What is wrong with expecting the twenty-somethings that want to get into the trade to make careful, knowledgable decisions regarding their choice of Master. Again, a market driven choice...and outcome.

A cursory study of history will show that it is immpossible to legislate the hacks out of effectiveness. They are only put out of commission by a knowledgable and intolerant consumer. And it works that way in a Republic, or a Democracy, or even a Socialist State.


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Derheatmeister

In Germany , after completing and trade (Three to four years), you must work as a trades man for three more years .Then you can apply for your Masters which when you go to install/service the equipment is a Requirement !

Derheatmeister

Bob that's petty cool stuff .Kind of what they are doing in the Denver area with the automobiles( it's kind of a drive by the emissions checker and you get fined/warned ) do you think this is better than a chimney sweeping company taking a reading?( keeping people busy)

bob_50

Busy

I think that the built in analyzers could create a lot of work for burner professionals. The government could notify the owner that his burner was out of spec and that they have X amount of time to get it repaired.

Derheatmeister

That is something like that in Germany ,But the Chimney sweeper comes to you house and check's your Equipment. It,s kind of Cool because as kid's we were waiting for the day that he would so up ..... then we would sneak up to him and try to get some Ash of off his Black leather Clothing. It Brings Good Luck ! You know ChimChimmaney Chimchamara.Chimchimaroo

Darrell

Hypothetical situation:

Dear Bob and Heatmeister:
RE: Service Vehicle Replacement:

Our records indicate that your service rigs have exceeded the United Nations useful life expectancy and must be replaced within 90 days. Please forward notarized validation of your new vehicle purchase to this office ASAP.

Be advised that your new service rig must fully comply with the established UN standards for fuel consumption, alternate fuel capability, cubic footage, signage, UN-OSHA standards, and any applicable local codes and ordinances.
(In other words...you'll be driving a mini-van).

Also be advised that the professional care of your existing vehicle, the maintenance records, your financial circumstances, scheduling issues, carrying capacity needs, or long legs have no bearing in this matter.

Failure to comply with this notice within the above specified time will result in the revocation of your UN approved business license, and severe penalties if you continue to perform your trade without the approval of this office. In the event that your license is revoked, you may reapply for licensure without prejudice upon proving to this office, or our agent, full compliance with all of the established....

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Derheatmeister

Yep,that's about the way it may go! or that is just the way it is now under the German clean air act. and you have to let the chimney sweep gain access to the equipment and if the equipment does not meet the standards you must have it serviced or they can shut you down! some very old equipment may be even taken out of commission

Darrell

I vote no.

And I'm going to bed!

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Derheatmeister

Darrell .In pain English ,if i understand you prev. post's to this subject,you think that the Industries cannot regulate these issues. Also you think that the government cannot and maybe even should not interfere ether . Well the Germans had to change: the forest were affected by Acid Rain in the 1970's. and i guess that they must be doing something Wrong! As far as i understand as per conversations with both of my brothers in Germany (Which are Heating engineers), the air and Water is much better now! Well maybe we should just wait until we roll in our own s.... Back to "the professional to regulate This: do you really think that the Professionals can regulate this. That may work in "Pleasant Ville" but i do not Think that in the real world it is possible ! Just a little confused !

Darrell

No, what I'm saying is that anytime a government entity starts telling me what I can or cannot do, or what I have to do, then my life typically gets more complicated or screwed up. The American system of free market has built the super power of the world and it has stood the test of time when other forms of government and marketing have failed their people and countries. America will cease to be great and fade into insignificance, as have other notable nations of history, when it's people stop thinking for themselves and rely on some nameless somebody insulated from the real world in an office somewhere to do their critical thinking and make their decisions for them, even if the government entity is well-intentioned and the cause is good. American's will have to give considerable ground in order for a government entity to exert the type of control that has been mentioned previously. You are talking about fundamentally changing the way America works to be more in line with Democratic/socialist governments that have, on the historical scale, been less successful.

If change is necessary...and I'm not arguing the point...then serious education needs to be undertaken. Not evangelistic indoctrination. Not insultingly wild claims and predictions of dire consequences. Not change at the force of arms at the expense of those who can least afford it, and are the most suseptible to fraud and scam. Honestly educate an intelligent public and they will demand the change starting in their own basements. Far better to have a willing public making the choices for themselves than an unwillingly forced compliance.

But, that takes work and honest science, and smart marketing, and empowers the populace...it is easier to lobby for a favorite cause and then force compliance. Why are we afraid to empower the populace? If memory serves me right, one generation ago the German people gave up their power of critical thinking and choice...

Color me a free-market conservative with a history/political science background that believes that the American Constitution is perhaps the greatest document ever written, and the people of the Nation that it represents and binds together are the best there is. Other Nations go to bed at night wishing the had what we seem to have forgotten that we have. That scares me.

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joel_19

darell

Too late: the populace does not think for themselves witness a huge chunk that will cast thier vote based primarilly on the race or sex of the individual in question. Regardless of how qualified they may be. The great Doctor King would role in his grave.

Might as well force them to conserve while we are at it.

Darrell

Perhaps I should say it this way:

Yes, individual contractors and heating professionals can make the change. The word regulate doesn't fit here. I can educate myself and, knowng my customer base, educate them and make their equipment as efficient and environmentally responsibe as possible based on a million vey subjective and intensely personal factors. That empowers the consumer, preserves the free-market economic ideal, pays me, and effects change at the grass roots level on a global basis. The honesty and integrity required of me will pay huge dividends to me in terms of business growth and repeat clients...a happy customerr is the best advertisement. If you commit to doing the same with your customer base then that will be twice as much change. Wouldn't this be better for them, and more satisfying for you, and ultimately more effective for change than some special interest group influencing a government entity to force them to make a change?

Idealistic? Perhaps, but, only because too many of the technicians who should commit to the honest study and education and then marketing it to their customer base won't do it. Does that make them Hacks?

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Derheatmeister

Scared

Darrell, For a moment you had me Scared ! I was thinking that you were going to rewrite the Constitution.......... Sorry but I was once was told from a very wise man that: A man convinced against his will ,is of the same opinion still!... And as per the Germans giving up their power of Thinking and Choice...what was that all about? I,and others ,think that this has taken a serious turn from the Original Post! I did answer your Curious "American" Request.( And by the way I was Born in FLA, So I am Native by birth!)I'm sorry you do not understand, and i do not Blame you since you most likely never seen the forests dieing doe to acid rain ............. I did ,And let me tell you it's very,very Scary. So again do you possibly have any answer to the original post. which i hope that taking your Automobiles to having them checked for Emission and possibly "red tagged"is not a Violation of your, or other Americans Rights! If you do have the answer to my Curious American's Original post i thank you for it!....Richard Graves From Heatmeister.