*******Dribling main vent after all I have done*********

Rob_50

Thanks for your replies,

I opened the drain cock on the wet return as well as the drain valve on the boiler. Only when I filled the vent hole with a high volvume of water did I see water come out of the boiler drain. which would indicate a full main draining back to the boiler or overfilling the wet return so that the hartford loop is draining back into the boiler and purging out the boiler drain.. If I would fill slowly only the wet return valve drained water and the boiler drain remained dry.

I wouldnt mind doing the work to change to a 1/2 inch tap for the quick vent but several local supply houses say that this vent location was an aferthought and will most probably still leak condensate since its right in the path of the condensate returning from the second floor riser. (it spills right into the hole) thats why I wanted to try to move it to the short radiator feed just off the end of the main. (see layout pic)

does anyone see any issues with the new location on its ability to vent efficiently or purge water? it is at the end of the main and should vent the bulk of the air but im not sure of this change.

Rob_50

*****Dribling quick vent after all I have done*******

Hi All, Happy New Year

Information ( as much as I can think of)

1) 80 year old, 2 story semi attached Brick Building with boiler in the basement

2) Single pipe steam, originally coal fired with a wet return

3) Refitted with a Natural Gas, Dunkirk Boiler rated at 151k btu’s , 15 years ago

4) All air-vents replaced about 10 years ago in attempt to balance system
First story has 6 rad’s all with “No.5” size vents,
Second story has 6 rad’s with 3 “No. 6” vents closest to the boiler and 3 “C’s” furthest from the boiler

5) Quick vent is a “No 1” size Gorton sitting on a 11” long vertical 1/2 nipple,reducing to a 1/8" elbow tapped into a Tee That feeds a riser to the second floor. This TEE is a few inches before the end of the main run.

6) Boiler has auto feed with a water level about 1 inch from the bottom of the glass

7) Pressuretrol is a PA 404a which I set at half a pound (.5) cut in and 1 pound on the wheel for a cut out of 1- 1/2 pounds.

8) According to the gauge, the cut out happens at about 2 pounds and cut in happens about 1.

Problem;
Main quick vent in the basement is purging water about a quarter cup at every heating cycle. It doesn’t spit water when the boiler is building pressure, it dribble’s a constant stream of water when the boiler shuts off and the pressure drops away. The vent is drilled into the 2” tee at its center line and is behind the wall and not easy to monitor.

Several years ago I replaced the old vent which was a 90 degree radiator Vent with a small hole that was screwed Directly into the 2 inch Tee on the main using a 1/8 inch tapped hole. I installed a Gorton “D” on a 1/8” elbow with a one inch high nipple. In the last year or two the paint has been mysteriously cracking and peeling from the walls. I thought it was an issue with the paint. I never knew it has been leaking steaming hot water and moistened the sheetrock to create this problem.

To address this, I changed the “D” to a new Gorton #1 and raised it up eleven inch’s high.(See Layout picture)The Riser Tee's rise about six inches above the main then travel’s horizontally 4 feet, to feed a riser to the second floor. Right next to that is another Tee that follows the same route to feed a radiator on the first floor. Both are inches from the end of the main run and the wet return.

Unfortunately several changes have been made and each may be an issue. I am not sure if then new boiler’s near piping is correct, I am not sure if the return is partially clogged slowing down the draining of the condensate or if this is a surging condition and needs further cleaning.

Action Taken,

1) I placed the vent on a nipple about 11 inches above the main and 4 inches above the elbows of the risers.


2) I lowered the boiler pressure to .5 cut in and 1.5 cut out.


3) I opened and piped the wet return drain cock to a floor drain, and fed a garden hose into the hole that the main vent taps into. I watched water run out of the wet return drain at a reasonable rate and relatively clean. (so I believe that confirms no clog in the wet return.)


4) I cold skimmed the boiler, then I opened the drain cock and rinsed it through the pop off valve for 10 min’s with a garden hose.

5) I connected a hose to the lower sight glass drain valve, closed the lower valve and opened the upper. I fired the boiler and collected the purging steam into a five gallon pail for a few hours. No matter how much I flush hot or cold I still get rusty water from the Boiler???

I would like to know if I can move or resize the main vent?? I want to move it to the radiator directly above it on the first floor. (see Layout Pic). would the new location create any problems? It should still vent the cold air from the main and maybe be out of the way of the wet steam. Also should I hot fire and purge through the pop valve to clean it more completely? Some say chemicals are the only way and some say only water to clean. What is right with such a dirty system? (Just to note I noticed no banging from the system since my changes. It’s been banging for 50 years) Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for all the valuable info on this site and to the people that spend their time sharing their knowledge, Robert

SpeyFitter

A couple suggestions.

Before you try moving that main vent, maybe you could get someone to weld in a full size tapping for the vent so that you could eliminate the reducer. I think that you are trapping condensate in there. Also, I would insulate the cr***p out of the pipes, including the extension nipple that leads up to the vent.

Maybe some of the pros here could help you better, but that is what my thoughts are.

Steamhead (in transit)

You are correct, \"mon capitan\"

that needs to be a 1/2" tapping in the side of the pipe. Also I'd use a Gorton #2 vent.

If the problem persists, the return line may be obstructed. You'd have to replace the return in that case.

"Steamhead"

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Steve_147

When you flushed the wet return was the water going through the return ? Or is it plugged and the water was going down the main and through the boiler?

joe lambert_2

I see in that illustration that the wet return is piped so that it rises up above the boiler water line almost as high as the end of the main and then goes back down into the boiler. If it is really piped that way than condensate water slow to return could back up into the main piping causing some of your problems. What you have is a water leg and maybe not enough B dimension.

What do you professionals think; Steamhead?

Rob_50

V8,
The illustration was not very accurate. I dont believe that is the case. I posted some more photos of the boiler piping. The hartford loop is low, just above the lower drain valve on the boiler. Just to note I do not have a drop header on the exiting main pipe as many people have talked about here. could that be responsible for a wet steam condition?

I still believe this is a combination of the wrong place for this quick vent and a surging condition. My decision to move this is because all that I have spoken to say that steam systems tend to surge eventually unless your maintanence is on the money. so sooner or later i will be wetting the wall again and that has to be addressed.I was hoping that moving the vent would be the best answer.

Steam head,
At the end of the season I will try to snake the wet return. I was told that a clog is a sort of a silt that is easily moved when touched and flushed.I dont want to get too deep while i need to depend on the heat. Also you mentioned a #2 gorton, is that because of the length of the main? (Main is 2 inch pipe)

SpeyFitter

You might mess yourself up

if you move the vent to the one radiator, especially since it's takeoff from the main is before the takeoff for the upstairs radiator. Air won't completely evacuate the end of the main then.

Also, your two tees that provide the takeoffs for the 1st floor and upstairs radiators are not oriented optimally. It is best to have the takeoff at a 45 deg. angle with respect to the vertical instead of directly at the top of the main. That way condensate will slide down the bottom edge of the pipe instead of dropping directly down on top of the steam in the main. If you did this, you could also move the new and improved larger tapping for the vent to the top of the tee and eliminate the elbow (and reducer)entirely. You want to make it as easy as possible for the steam and the condensate to stay out of each other's way, and prevent any trapping of condensate, as well.