Seattle Housing Auth Radiant Open SystemsFailures

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yikes! Sounds like a large firm got a low bid contract by carefully examining codes and finding the cheapest possible way to comply with the letter (not spirit) of the law.

Perhaps the design was perfect on paper, but once many different humans with their own habits become involved the difference between "paper perfect" and "workable" can be ENORMOUS unless you INTENTIONALLY and PERMANENTLY limit the ability of the occupants to make adjustments.

Since it sounds like taxpayers <I>already</I> footed a hefty portion of the bill, I can nearly guarantee you that they'll pay 100% for any and all required changes that may well greatly exceed the cost <I>had the city <B>properly</B> specified the systems in the beginning</I>.

Paul Pollets

What Again???

This appeared last week, both on radio and TV. Open systems, radiant in-floor heating, water heaters...

I object to the term "cutting edge" to describe this fiasco!!

http://www.king5.com/health/stories/NW_010308WAB_newholly_water_lead_TP.899e668.html

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Bruce M

I read the article


I have to ask......are there no editors at this station?

Easily one of the worst written publications I have read.

I agree 100% with your objection Paul.

Something tells me that the true story will never be reported.

Mark H

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Any more detail Paul? Are these combi-boilers designed for both space and domestic water heating?

Why the leaks in the walls? Poor connections? I thought that PEX tubing itself was essentially eternal. Even without an oxygen barrier isn't is only ferrous components that suffer premature death?

Where is the [potential] source for the lead contamination? Chinese heat exchangers? <;) Have the wacko alarmists taken hold of Washington State as they have in California? Light a cigarette in a CA bar and you're kicked out--fire up a "J" and "go back there..."

Paul Pollets

This system...

uses a gas water heater directly connected to radiant floors. A 3 way thermostatic valve controls temps, with system pressure at 50psi. I can't confirm that a flat plate heat exchanger was used to separate the systems. The piping has split, a brand of pex-al-pex. This is similar to other recent radiant failures in Seattle using fan coil units, instead of radiant floors. The installation apparently complies with Seattle codes, allowing direct connection of the heating system with the potable water. There is evidence that raising the temps of the HW heater to 140-160 to 'workablle outputs" causes increased chlorides, which react with the piping and fittings. I've seen splits that look like frost damage. While these stories get people agitated, they're examples of shoddy design, and low cost. Not efficiency or longevity. Should taxpayers foot the bill for the fix?

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rich pickering

Ignore the open system for now. Doesn't anyone find it alarming that the pipe is splitting? It is rated for these temps and pressures.

yahtzee

Splitting pipe

Is anyone aware of the type and/or brand of pipe. It wasn't mentioned anywhere in the article. Yes that is alarming.

Unknown

haven't pipe failures on freshwater heating systems already been documented in this region?

Paul Pollets

Details

There are at least 4 lawsuits underway in Seattle concerning failed hydronic systems. Some used Plasco piping, which was rumored to be made from resins not approved for high temperature fluids. The pipe split or the fittings failed. The details will be available, pending the lawsuit verdicts.

The SHA problems are twofold...lead in the potable water and failure of the "radiant" heating systems. The lead was presumably caused by the use of red brass unions and fittings, with a DHW recirc pump on continuously, which leached the lead from the fittings.

All of this is unconfirmed rumor, but from Seattle trade buzz. I'd like more details on why the radiant failed, and hope to find out some day.

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GMcD

Thanks for the updates

It's the stuff like that that frustrates me - the "good part" of the radiant industry- proper designs and applications, watching out for the details, etc. so it DOES work right, and works right for a long, long time, gets slagged because of a few folks who took shortcuts and believed that efficient=cheap. The media then sensationalizes it while twisting and omitting key facts, and it becomes part of the Public's "belief system" - hey I read it in the paper so it must be true, right?

I still get the "what if a pipe leaks" question when I design concrete core conditioning systems up here, long after two local projects went awry due to somebody taking a shortcut during construction and leaving water in the tubing over a Christmas holiday and it froze. Lots and lots of spalled and cracked structural concrete. A mess. But that's what people remember. Sigh...

tim smith

Regarding open system

Paul, I just wonder if these guy's were smart enough to put an expansion tank on these systems. As we all know the pex when heated up and no expansion tank is going to burst due to temp & higher pressure. I saw one where contractor did exactly this and as you said, looked like frozen pipe splits. Waste of tax payer money.

Paul Pollets

Exp tank

the video in the link shows the expansion tank...with the red tubing...the rest is conjecture, at the moment.

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rich pickering

Kitec p-al-p is/was rated for continuous use of 125 psi at 180f. No potable system should see those numbers. But it has been pulled from the market for potable use.

Unknown

any links to more info on that rich?

MechTech_2

Kitec Potable

We've been told that production has officially ceased Dec. 31,07 of their potable line? Also, the rumor mill has it that they are trying to get approvals on a high temp poly L poly? Here we go again!

rich pickering

Sorry, had a copy of the notice, but can't find it yet.

Interesting sidenote, no mention of Kitec on the Ipex website and any links on the net disapper into the void.