For Ron Jr. (ME)

Will Merryman

Hi Mark, I was wondering what the DC generator is for and how it works. Could you point me in a good direction for additional information ? I googled it and am interested. I also noticed the different manifold set ups. is this a test to determine each one's efficiency ?

[Deleted User]

And anyone else who thinks that ProPress can't save time...

Ron, As promised, I finally got around to doing some "real time" testing in our hydronic assembly lab.

I needed to assemble two identical heat exchangers for use as a DC thermal generator. I decided to do one in regular sweat, and one in ProPress and time the difference in required prep and assembly. Interestingly enough, in the actual process of "doing" the joints, the ProPress only cut one minute off of the time required to complete identical jobs. 8 minutes to solder, 7 minutes to ProPress. Bear in mind that these are only 1/2" joints, and I was using a TurboSnake torch, so it got up to temp lickity split. I should also note, that if the joints had been 3", the labor of soldering would have been SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than the time required to ProPRess. The time to ProPress a 1/2" joint is the same time for doing a 3 " joint, hence significant savings on larger pipe.

But where the system really shines is in not having to flux, and clean each individual fitting and nipple. In that area, I had ZERO prep time for the ProPress, and 22 minutes prep time for the soldered assembly. That equates to a labor savings of around 74% total in the time required for identical projects.

In a post about this before, I said you could do 2 times as many jobs per day. I was wrong. You could do 3 times as many jobs in a given day:-)

Try it. You might just like it. And, as I said before, if you can convince your employer to allow you and your crew to do these boiler swap outs on a fixed fee basis, you could be done by noon, and paid for the whole day!

Work Smarter, not harder.

Enjoy!

ME

Bruce M

One Missing Item

Mark, your scientific test seems to be missing one variable; which will last longer? Not sure if any answer is possible at this point in time.

Brad White_184

But Mark.....

If Pro-Press saves 74% of the time, what will Ron Jr. do with the rest of his day? You are greasing the lightning there, my friend...

[Deleted User]

Thats not my job Bruce...

That's the job of the manufacturer. It's been in use for over 30 years across the pond, with significant accelerated time testing ongoing with no issues.

If you are worried about the use of O rings on hydronic piping systems, you had better get out of this business. They are EVERYWHERE, and a LOT of them are buried structurally.

I'm just rolling with the flow, trying to stay ahead of the Jonsers, trying to be as efficient as I can be, working smarter and not harder :-)

Brad, Ron can then do as he pleases with is time.. It's HIS time after all...

Greased lightning indeed...

ME

[Deleted User]

Will,

Thanks for your questions. I'm working with a group of local inventors that has a means of converting DC electricity into thermal energy using a glass pane. These heat exchangers will encase the glass panes (2 of them back to back) to see what our hydronic thermal extraction capabilites are.

The intent is to incorporate them into solar PV systems, or hydrogen fuel cell systems, which by the way generate DC voltage, to allow the consumer the option of turning their electricity into thermal energy for whatever purpose meets their needs.

As jp will point out, if the home is truly off grid, there might not be any excess energy laying around. But in the case of a grid tied system, there are many times during the summer months that capacity exceed demand, and there is excess energy available.

You can A.) sell it back to the grid at a price that is only slightly better than a sharp stick to the eye,

B.) not do anything with it, or now

C.) convert it into useful thermal energy for DHW preheat, GSHP loop charging or whatever your thermal fancys are.

Testing begins as soon as I get back from a weeks vacation on the Isle of Women in Mexico. (Isla Mujeres)

ME

Robert O'Brien

I use

Propress primarily on boiler replacements,in reality it saves about an hour per job.Although that doesn't sound like a lot,combined with the freedom from leaks and better appearing joints is well worth the additional cost

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bruce M

Wet Connections

Mark, I was thinking that the ability to make wet connections might be the most valuable feature.

Mark Eatherton

Priceless...

I've changed major potable water valves at the BOTTOM of 5 story buildings, wet. Had I had to wait until system was dry enough to solder, it would have taken most of the day. As it was, we got the job done in under an hour...

ME

Unknown

I don't doubt

that Propress can shave off a considerable amount of time in certain projects , like the one you showed us .

But there are a few issues with using Propress for the work we do specifically ........

Working in confined areas with hard to reach pipes or pipes too close together . How much area do you need to maneuver the tool into place ?

Do you need to change the crimping part for different sizes ? How long does it take ? I like to fab up more than one pipe at a time , usually different sizes . Changing the crimping part ( if it needs to be changed ) gets time consuming .

Parts availability and the need to stock a whole different set of fittings , essentially doubling the copper stock needed on the truck .

Mark , did you kinda stretch out the cleaning and fluxing time ? I see there's alot of tees and pipes , but 22 minutes ? You weren't trying to squeeze your big pinky into the tees with steel wool while holding a bottle of Coors , were ya ?

I'd love to try a Propress tool someday , just to make sure I'm not wrong about the issues I brought up . But take a look at these 2 jobs and ask yourself like I do .... Since this is typical of what we replace often , would Propress be a good choice for us ?

I can't wait to hear more about this project Mark . Have a great vacation Buddy .

[Deleted User]

O.M.G.....

I take back what I said. You can't use ProPress. It's too big to fit into the closet you have your boiler packed into.

And to be honest, you can NEVER stop soldering 100 %. Yet... But the less you have to do, the faster the job goes. And then, there's the pretty much bullet proof joint. If my leak rate on our companies soldered joints were as good as PP, we'd be out seeing a WHOLE lot less of our customers buildings..... after the fact.

You do have to think things out a little in rooms like that, but that's why they hired YOU. They know you can shoe horn 7 pounds of system into a 2 pound closet. And make it look great and work fantastic. What more could they ask for?


I would bet you that if you told Ridgid Viega to rent their machines through Home Depot Rentals, it could happen... Then, you can only get it when you want/need it. I think a person like you could figure out how to use this system. Try it. You might like it... I do.

As a matter of fact, I know they (Rigid-Viega) read this site daily :-)

Remember me in your will...:-)

Man, you get some doozies out there...suprised no one's died in these homes. Hope they never do...Sorry if someone did. That's not something I'd want on my shoulders for life.

Adios Amigos. I hear a beach calling me...

Dos mas mucho frio cervesa porfavor...

Gracias :-)

ME

escaseadjug1793177

What is the cost difference in fittings, plus the original buy in of the propress with all the different jaw sizes? One would need to figure the pay back to figure out whether it's worthwhile.

jp_2

U rang mark?

yes, your gizmo will work. question is, at what cost?

the math, as you know, is rather easy. 3.4 watts= 1 btu.

no magic here. Now, take that DC and run a microwave water heater and you might have something, but still, something very small. but not a DC hot plate.

a little research and you will find that PV panels, as well as they work, are not efficient, they use a small percentage of the suns power.

just look at the output of a flat plate solar collector compared to a similar size(sq ft area) PV panel?

I think your best bang for the buck is to buy another battery!!!!! and of course size your panels to your actual needs.

why not run the GSHP with the PV's to preheat water?

ADDED:

what I do not understand mark, why have PV's and be connected to the grid at the same time? most people are gone during the day when PV's are doing their thing?

jp_2

bump for Mark

as you say mark, a btu is a btu; but also a btu is a watt.

PV's don't make good heaters, heres why:

take a backyard solar food cooker, it can cook a good stew in the afternoon. now take a PV panel the same size as the cookers reflectors, you'll get about 15watts out of it. imagine trying to cook a stew with a 15watts stove element?

so you can see why PV's make good electricity but poorly makes heat.

buy another battery for excess days.

[Deleted User]

Multiple reasons jp...

First and foremost, the conversion of watts to btu is simple, but getting it from DC to Water is the trick (wire to water), hence the experiment. I am only aware of one (1) DC to hot water generator, and that was a patent I reviewed a LONG time ago, and am not sure if it ever came to fruition commercially.

The other part of the equasion is to utilize these heat exchangers on the back side of a PV cell, thereby increasing the electrical (Current) AND thermal performance of silicon cell panels. I realize a few of the new cells operate more efficiently at a higher operating temperature, but I think the majority operate less efficiently at elevated cell temperatures.

The idea of running a GSHP unit with PV's is a great idea, but I think if you look at the amperage requirements of the state of the art compressors, you will find that they are pretty substantial, and well in excess of typical residential PV systems. It would however, give you a LOT more heat transfer from WHATEVER source, at an good efficiency. (COP's as high as 4 to 1 under the right conditions)

I am waiting for the compressor manufacturers to come out with the same DC ECM motor technology that is flooding the variable speed pump market. That, coupled with the scroll compressor technology holds a LOT of potential as it pertains to being utilized in smaller, more efficient packages, possibly powered from small PV arrays.

But as you can see from my other post on heat pump technology, I am not too enamoured with the current state of the art technology in that arena...

As for why people are doing the grid and PVs at the same time, it because of the "tax incentive" combined with "utility incentives", and city folk tryin' to do the "right thing", wanting to be Green. They are obviously not doing it because it makes sense financially...

You, I presume, are doing it out of necessity. As you've said previously, the cost of distribution to your point of use is cost prohibitive. But if it weren't for that, I presume you'd be like the rest of us gridders. :-)

Colorado, and California are two states that I am aware of with substantial financial incentives (government and generator) for alternative electrical production, primarily solar PV. I'm sure there are more on the horizon. I'm not sure I totally agree with subsidization, based on what I saw during the 80's, but it is here to stay.

ME

Derheatmeister

Iron Pro press Fittings

Hey Mark.what you Think about the Propress that i used 25 years ago in Germany? We used Iron pipe and Fittings .Isn't Copper much more than iron.I should Maybe Call and see how the O-Rings are Holding up! RG Von HM

[Deleted User]

For sure...

nothing speaks as clearly as actual installation proof. Check it out and let us know.

Thanks HM

ME

Derheatmeister

Mapress

Hey, Mark will call Germany Next week re O-rings in these somewhat ( For American Installs)"Older Installs. In between i Researched the German net ,and found that there is a Dist. here in the US for the System that we used in the "fatherland".

jp_2

hit the nail on the head mark

thats the reason I'm against tax credits and the sort. you end up wasting big money that could better be used, such as a community football field size PV array, instead of all these poorly efficient roof top systems.

Real Goods Catalog has DC immersion heater elements, fall catalog pg 81, 600watt for $95, 1440watt for $116. screws right in a water heater. can't beat that cost...

the PV cooling system will work, but again at what cost and true benefit. the peak losses due to overheating probably are only 2-3 hrs per day, you may pick up 4 or 5% efficiency for those couple of hours, I don't see the pay back.

plus you should already be running a H2O solar collector system which will greatly out perform your PV coolers so wheres the cool water going to come from to cool the PV's?

lastly you have to consider the energy cost of moving that PV cooling water and you will probably come out with Zero gain or even a negative, and a large financial cost.

do you have some numbers? I'd be curious?(non $ number btw)

yes, i read your comments on heat pumps with disappointment, but it doesn't really surprise me

I too am a grid pig, i live off the grid but work on the grid, power tools, MIG welder, drill press and my dog food freezers.

jp_2

DC heat elements

mark, there are DC immersion heaters all over the internet:

http://westondale.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6

12v, 100-800watt element from above web site.

also found searches for 48V, 24V, 12V ......

how big of a system are you dealing with?