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marrying a Stratos and a Vitodens

GW
GW Member Posts: 4,679
I didn't install a LLH, I simply close-space-tee'd this boiler into a primary loop above the boiler. Can someone explain the reason behind the LLH? Most every other boiler manufacturer shows the same setup I'm doing. The pump is below the boiler as it shows in the install manual, on the return, pumping into the 11-44 (I typed 11-40 before, sorry), complete with 1 1/4" spring check.

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Gary Wilson
Wilson Services, Inc
Northampton, MA
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Comments

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    what's your take?

    I booted up my crisp new 3-20 Stratos today on my 11-40 Vito; very sweet. I programmed in 15 ft of head and away it went. Anyway, I need to have the sparky come over someday soon.

    I need to juice the stratos with 230V; looking for some opinions. My thinking is I can either grab the 230V off of the step-up tranny then move the power through a 115v coil relay when the 20 plug fires, or (more work) run a dedicated circuit with 230V (I will still need to install a relay). The pump, unles I'm really confused, is drawing 80 watts at full output (it's rated for 20 ft hd). I'm just a tad too lazy to go grab my amp claw... I gotta get home!

    Mark, what say you, and Viesmann dukes and knights, any thoughts?

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  • Mark Hunt_3
    Mark Hunt_3 Member Posts: 184
    Hi Gary


    Your wattage sounds about right. When I crank the Stratos 3-20 that is on the Brain Box up to max head it draws about 110 watts. When I dead head it at that setting, the wattage drops to 19.

    I am planning on heading out your way after I get back from Syracuse next week. I will bring the infra-red module and we can read in real time exactly what the Stratos is doing.

    Thanks for using Wilo!

    Mark H
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    new ground

    I guess there's not too many people wanting to take a stab at the voltage issue... too new of a topic.

    Whatever the exact wattage I'll be saving (perhaps 100 watts under the conventional grundfos), my green machine should be able to pay itself off (cost over the typical grunfos)in not too many heating seasons.

    Mark, I dig the idea of your special module, that may be the ticket, allwoing straight 230 to power the pump's brain and using the end switch you mentioned to make the pump operate.

    Thanks, Gary

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  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 552
    230v

    Gary that isnt the same 230v we have here
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    230 to ground?

    isn't that 230V to ground?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,866
    Does the Vitoden's

    step up tranformer have enough capacity to add that circ? It should be listed on the module and the boilers power consumption in the manual.

    If the Wilo is like the Grundfos Alpha a 240 volt (2- 120 legs) can be wired on to the circ connections. The on-board electronics will handle the 50- 60Hz clean up.

    Or you can buy a small 120- 230V step up transformer, just for the circ, if that is easier then running a 240V circuit.

    IF you do run a 240V circuit be sure to use a 240V recepetacle and plug. don't be tempted to use a 120V duplex :)

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    volt

    I was just staring at it for a while; seems like the main boiler circuit fuse is a .8 amp inside the pump control box. Doesn't look good for running the pump off of the stepped up voltage. Although, my calculator says that would give me 184 watts worth of juice before the fuse poofs, but I'm guessing there's always a jump in amps when things start up (probalbly not much in this situation). The circ syas it's max wattage is 80 (still have a hard time believing that one). I'm doubtful I could get Viessmann to give me a blessing on this idea.

    I'm with you on the step up trans, just like what the vito uses. I do have a 230V set of wires already in place becasue I installed a elec WH to get my cert of occ.

    Gary

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  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    230V

    from what I can remember, the german voltage is single phase 230v or whatever, that is, hot wire to ground, we (US) have 220-240 hot wire to hot wire or 110V hot to ground.

    if this is correct and you wire to your ele hot water heater 220V to the pump, you might end up shorting one side right to ground(120V)??
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,866
    A simple converter is

    all you need. Most travel goods stores have them. This is a plam sized 100W that Grundfos sends with their sample pumps.

    It's a palm sized device.

    Radio Shack has a 150W for 70 bucks TU 150 UL.

    I wouldn't run the circ with that 30 amp dryer cord ;)

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    nice

    That looks pretty good. I didn't know such handy devices existed.

    Yes, my temp wiring job is just that... until sparky gets there. I want to have the plan all figured out before he comes. It seems like I almost have the plan figures out. You should see my current condensate drain arrangement...

    The elec wh is gone (got a two-coil 300 tank going in), so the 230 wires were up for grabs for my current situation. pssstt... I didn't tell the Stratos the wires were kinda big... let's keep it our secret. I don't thing the green machine knows yet! :)

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    I'm still lost

    I didn't know there were two different types of 230V. The pump wanted 230, so I jammed in a 230V circuit. Runs like a champ.

    I was on a job this past summer where the sparky somehow crossed up his wiring on two AC units. I had 115V on all legs outdoors, but no 230. I went inside and moved the two wires into their corrected positions, and problem was gone.

    Anyway, I thought there was only one way to do 230V.

    Gary

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  • Mark Hunt_3
    Mark Hunt_3 Member Posts: 184
    You are correct Gary.


    120v to each connection = 240v. Double pole breaker so that we are drawing off the separate bars in the panel.

    The euro version I have operate on different Hz. 50 as opposed to 60.

    Mark H

  • Fitty_2
    Fitty_2 Member Posts: 2


    What's the availability of the Stratos over here? I'm not seeing any pics are any posted?

    Also if you're looking for max efficiency (least wattage lost/drawn) I think it will be best running off a 230 line with a relay since you will lose some efficiency through a transformer.
  • Mark Hunt_3
    Mark Hunt_3 Member Posts: 184
    Fitty


    Where are you located?

    Mark H
  • Tim_41
    Tim_41 Member Posts: 153
    stratos

    I fired up a stratos about a month ago. I put the stratos on its own breaker. The boiler is a vitodens 11-44. Its for heat only. The pump is really neat. I only have one zone going to take the chill off. Sitting the pump up for the one zone was easy. I'll try to get pictures. I just have to get a digital camera.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    pics and power

    I'll post some pics when the sparky completes the wiring. Too ugly at the moment.

    I'm glad you mentioned the power loss issue. Does anyone have an idea on how much power gets lost in the shuffle? i'm guessing minimal, but an equation would be cool.

    Gary

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  • Fitty_2
    Fitty_2 Member Posts: 2


    Hi Mark-

    I'm located in MD.

    Thanks,
    Milan
  • Stratos Power

    Just to clear this up a bit (I hope), the Stratos needs 230 volt +/- 10% across the power input terminals. That could be two 115 volt "hots" (wired via two seperate breakers like an electric stove), 230 volt hot and neutral or 2 of three legs of three phase power - as long as the total voltage across the power inputs total 230 +/- 10% you are A OK.

    The power consumption of the drive is about 1.4 watts. Can't say what the power consumption of a tranformer is but if it's wired to 2 x 115 volt lines you don't need any transformer.

    To make things easier, it has (among other features), under and over voltage protection so if you "guess" and are wrong - no worries mate - it'll give you an error code.
  • Tim Lindstrom_2
    Tim Lindstrom_2 Member Posts: 7
    Stratos Project in Colorado

    Attached are a couple of pictures of the first "North Americanized" Stratos pumps installed in Colorado. The project is the Two Rivers Convention Center in Grand Junction. The boiler on the system is a Patterson Kelley Modulating Forced Draft N2000-MFD - pretty slick set-up. The job was comissioned in July 2007. I love to see the utility bill compared to last year!
  • Steve_147
    Steve_147 Member Posts: 14


    Did you use a low loss header? Where is the pump in the system?
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    There's probably a Viessmann 230V pump module over in Europe, but that doesn't do you much good here...

    Believe you'll be cutting things close if you power via the 230V in the power module. As you said, it probably wouldn't get Viessmann's blessing and you'd still have to add some sort of on-off control for the circulator as it would constantly be powered.

    Why not use the appropriate 120V output in the power module to power the coil of a 2-pole relay? Run your 230V through the relay's contacts. I'd include an appropriate fuse after the relay as peak current draw will be FAR too low for any 230V circuit breaker and without the fuse you could easily fry something to death before the circuit breaker ever tripped. Check with sparky, but I have a feeling you can get the power from an existing 230V breaker (as long as you include the fuse).

    Am a bit curious about your application. Is the Stratos for the primary or secondary? Is a LLH used?

    If for primary (or direct drive without LLH), are you certain you need 15' of head through the HX? 15' gives the max permissible flow through the HX of about 15 gpm (assuming little or no other head loss with a LLH).

    Was Viessmann unable to recommend a KM-BUS circulator for use with the 11-40? Does it not have built-in control for a VS circulator just like the smaller models? Perhaps the appropriate VS circulators aren't yet available here in North America?

    See the attachment for Viessmann's take on VS circulators. They seem to greatly prefer boiler control of circulation speed as opposed to "simply" maintaining a constant head. If your Stratos is on the primary side of the LLH, won't the speed be constant since the head loss through the HX and primary piping are constant as well? Again, are you positive you need 15' of head if it's on the primary (or directly driving the system)?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    232 V

    Mike you are real savey at control strategy ....talk to us about rectifying voltage with the addition of a 24 V low voltage transformer on one of the two phase legs of 208 three phase.

    ok, how about a 12V ? that would give you pretty close to 220V :)
  • Tim_41
    Tim_41 Member Posts: 153


    I used the stratos after the LLH on the secondary side.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Wish I knew a lot more Weezbo. I've never in my life worked with three phase and for the life of me still don't quite understand full return path of 110V single wire A/C.

    As best as I can understand, you connect the primary of appropriate transformer (proper primary & secondary voltages as well as VA rating) to one leg of the three phase with the 2nd wire from the primary coil going to neutral (not equipment ground). The true neutral is required because you are only using one phase, thus somewhat unbalancing the system.

    For simple rectifiction to DC, just add a full-wave bridge rectifier of suitable current rating to the two secondary transformer wires. One-piece full wave bridge rectifiers have four leads and they connect in opposing pairs, e.g. connect A/C across opposite leads and you get "rough" DC (both positive and negative) from the other pair of opposite leads--neither of these are neutral or ground!

    Full-wave bridge rectifiers reduce voltage somewhat (as a percentage I believe) when converting from AC to DC, so for critical applications you may need to use a transformer with a higher secondary voltage rating. Again, they produce quite "rough" DC that won't be suitable for sensitive electronics. Filtration may be required.

    The proper way to rectify 3-phase into DC is shown in the attachment. Notice that this is a balanced circuit, meaning that no neutral is required. While still not "pure", the resulting DC will be far cleaner than via a single phase, full-wave bridge rectifier. Of course the resulting DC would be near 460V and to transform, you'd first have to run through an inverter (to produce AC); then through a transformer to step down, then through another rectifier circuit to get back to DC...
  • Bruce M
    Bruce M Member Posts: 166
    Very nice!


    Excellent work!

    Thanks for choosing Wilo!

    Mark H
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    The LLH utterly guarantees that primary (boiler) return temperature can NEVER be higher than secondary (emitter) return temp. The flow paths in the LLH are logical and always in the direction that intuition tells you they should be. The same cannot be said of primary/secondary with closely spaced tees which is most useful for keeping return temperature UP for conventional boilers.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    Mike

    Excellent thoughts, thanks.

    Yes, the Stratos is an over-qualified piece of equipment for my application. I wanted the wiz-bang factor. As an added benefit, it will save me power over the years. You're right, there's no variable head losses going on here, just the HX of the 11-44.

    The circ is strictly being used as a boiler pump, injecting into the primary loop above the boiler. I hope we all have a phrases correct; this would make the Stratos located on the secondary side (boiler loop). I suppose the words are interchangeable depending on what direction you're looking at it from.

    I re-adjusted the head pressure to 12.1, or somewhere in that vicinity. I could probably even go lower because I'm moving such little heat through the boiler (low fire comes on for a few minutes, then goes off for 10 or so).

    I did call Canada on what their opinion was on a normal Grundfos (before I popped for the Wilo), and the tech guy said they don't normally get involved with pump sizing. I just don't understand why, if there's no system connected to the boiler, why they can't specify a boiler pump like everyone else.

    The local rep recommended a 26-99, I was thinking 26-64, then along came Stratos.


    Thanks, Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    llh vs p/s

    If the flow was high enough the boiler's supply water would go backwards in the primary (I fear I may be using the opposite term as you) piping, so I see your point. I'm just not grasping how that's much different than a llh.

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    It may not be correct in the conventional sense, but with mod-cons at least I see the "primary" as the boiler and "secondary" as the emitters.

    Viessmann definitely recommends a number of circulators for use with the larger Vitodens 200 models but of course the actual circulator chosen will be highly dependent upon the system to which the boiler is connected... All Grundfoss and none are variable speed. I'll try to confirm in the next few days, but I have a sneaking suspicion that variable-speed KM-BUS circulators controlled by the boiler itself are used in Europe, but are not yet available here in North America.

    It really sounds to me as though your 11-44 is quite oversized for the application. Considering your cycle observation, and presuming your system operates at low to moderate temps (e.g. the emitters have generous area and aren't constipated), I'd set the Stratos for a head that produces about 12F-15F delta-t at minimum input. Then watch the reported "boiler temperature" during sustained indoor conditions in "typically cold" weather. If boiler temp is much above 140F, then I'd add a bit more head (thus increasing primary flow and reducing primary delta-t).
  • Bruce M
    Bruce M Member Posts: 166
    Mike


    Excellent points. The Stratos does have the ability to modulate according to DT when an additional inter-face module is used. This would also require an external 0-10vdc control.

    I have had a number of contractors ask me about this application and to be honest, I just have not been able to play around with the scenario. Before I will ever give a nod to something, I want to be sure that it works. I never used a customer as a guinea pig when I was a contractor and I sure as heck won't start now that I work for a manufacturer.

    The issue is that unless the boiler is "talking" to the circulator and vice versa, neither cares what the other is doing. Separate agendas if you will.

    The upside of all of this is that we are approaching that day when the ENTIRE system will be harmonized. This discussion has been worked over at length in the past and always ended with "if only". Well....I think we have turned the corner and we will soon be able to reach that goal. Total system balance.(Higher turn down ratios would be nice)

    The future is so bright.............I gotta' wear shades!

    Mark H
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Do you see the Caleffi profile/ I Werks

    controllers in that picture ... married to ,weather predictive satellite information of specific sites within a given area?

    :)
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Thanks Mike.

    *~/:)
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,679
    Boiler

    Hi Mike,

    There's a lot going on, more than meets the eye, I have geo thermal heating on as well (office space can be either radiant or warm air/AC), basement and second floor areas not being heated yet, cool temps in the shops, etc. So, I certainly am oversized at the moment. Thanks, Gary

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Viessmann is supposed to get back with me tomorrow morning to let me know if the 11-44 and 15-60 have the inherent ability to control a KM-BUS circulator. Person I spoke with in Warwick has to get the answer from Canada.

    I've also asked if they know of any such circulators available in North America.

    By modulating your primary circuit Stratos via delta-p, delta-t will rise with increasing boiler output--typically from increasing demand due to decreased outside temps. Such is the general result I see in my directly connected 6-24 with the built-in VS circulator. Unless the circulator adapts very rapidly, I have a feeling that delta-t modulation of the primary flow could be prone to high safety limit problems.
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