Oh the horror...

Abro

> to a mod-con installation than a cast iron <BR>
> install..different animals piped <BR>
> differently..<BR>
> <BR>
> _A <BR>
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id= <BR>
> 360&Step=30"_To Learn More About This <BR>
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in <BR>
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The Prestige can be piped direct, it certainly doesn't need protection from condensing, and shouldn't need a LWCO in many jurisdictions if they allow low-pressure switch shut-offs to be used instead.

Why would you say there is a lot more to it?

oldhousenut

The horror of...

..trying to find an installer that will install a Triangle Tube Prestige. I have a 1914 house that has been gutted, re-insulated and put back together by me. I had a fhw steam conversion system. Demo'd the old boiler in the basement and all the old 2 1/2" steel pipes. I'm starting from scratch with everything but the radiation- we have 12 (way oversized)ci rads and like the look and heat they generate. I'd very much like to install a progressive and efficient boiler but I've spent a TON of money fixing up this house and don't want to go crazy w/ the install cost as I can't see being here for more than 5 years. My fuel bills w/ the old beast were not crazy(c. $2500 for the year). I was interested in the TT because of the price point and good reviews(here). I've met w/, oh, 12 - 13 installers and 10 of them recommend ci boilers that are sized b/w 130 and 170 btu(I have a heat loss of 70,000). I found one installer willing to install the TT for 20k- which is about 3 times what I want to pay for the job.

My question is: I've found a guy that will do the job for a reasonable price and doesn't seem to have the 'tude of the other guys. Should I just say install the TT and pipe it per specs or is there more to this than a straight ci install? Are there advanced tests and calibration that should be done? Are they unique to condensers?

Thanks!

gerry gill

there is a lot more

to a mod-con installation than a cast iron install..different animals piped differently..

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MIke_Jonas

Jeez Louise..

And how did you determine $ 6,666.00 was a fair price?

For a new boiler, installed, complete??

Abro

More?

The Prestige can be piped direct, it certainly doesn't need protection from condensing, and shouldn't need a LWCO in many jurisdictions if they allow low-pressure switch shut-offs to be used instead.

Why would you say there is a lot more to it?

Wayco Wayne_2

Were are you located?

I like the TT Prestige. I have about 10 installed and very little trouble. WW

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Jeff Lawrence_25

what are you looking at?

If you want it installed by a pro, you'll have to pay for more than labor...

Sometime ago, there was a list posted on the Wall that told most of the things that the pros have to pay for, including (but not limited to) payroll, insurance, vehicle care, etc.

You may be able to find someone at the price you want to pay, but what will you actually get?

Bob Bona_4

for one

venting. It doesn't install itself. The TT normally mounts on a wall. Prep time and materials there. How about condensate removal and treatment?

This ain't yer CI boiler w/ tankless.
Whole nuther animal.

Bob Bona_4

and

how's the DHW getting done?

oldhousenut

I'm in Cental Mass Wayne. DHW is a 75 gal stand alone only 1 yr old. I was budgeting 8k which given the price point of the tt allows 4 for labor.

tim smith

Regarding TT vs cast iron

I can install a Triangle tube prestige as fast as a cast iron in most applications. As stated by other, the venting can be a crux but usually not any harder than installing a liner down a brick chimney which we need to on most cast jobs we do. The cost although, 6666.????????? what? Thats the price of materials only for a well done boiler replacement only.

Uni R_2

The subject was piping...

"different animals piped differently"

Rick Kelly_4

Triangle Tube Prestige

The one question that immediately comes to mind is this:

Why are you installing a condensing boiler with a cast iron radiator distribution system?

Also, if you plan on running low temps to stay within condensing range, do you have enough radiators to make up for lower supply temps?

Steve Ebels_3

Back up a minute there padna'

Who has determined that the existing rads are adequate to heat the structure at lower temps and how have they done so?

That's the first and very BIG question that needs to be answered. Without that information locked down everyone is just blowing smoke.

Now....assuming that your radiation is up to the task at ideal water temps of say 140-150* max, you can safely say the a M/C boiler is the correct choice. If you're going to need temps of 170-180+ you may want to consider a different type of boiler altogether as a M/C won't do you much better unless you can run outdoor reset of your water temps.

The TT is a very good boiler from what I've seen on the installs we've done with them. Good performance and reliability has been good so far although none of ours are over a year old. If price is primary you may want to consider the Viessmann Vitodens 100 series which is excellent and very basic. Natural gas only though, no propane available yet.

Price is usually not discussed here because there are sooooo many variables on any job that you can't cover all the bases over the internet. That being said, I would guess that for a good install in your area you should honestly be looking at somewhere around $10K. Someone doing it for $6K or so will not be around to service it for long and they certainly won't have any funds to stock parts with. Ask your 6K guy if he owns a combustion analyzer (required to correctly set up the burner) I'm betting not.

As to the install itself, yes the TT can run some systems with the onboard circ. However, as with all M/C boilers, flow rates are critical and a thorough consideration of existing and additional piping HAS to be done. To simply assume that the circ will do the job is foolish to say the least and a good recipe for failure. There are many other factors such as that which will require careful consideration before making a decision as to what boiler is correct and what piping needs to be there.

All that being said, you can begin to see that a worthy installer will have $300-500 of time into your system before you even give him the green light to proceed. Undoubtedly that's not sweet music to your ears but those are the simple facts.

When I run into a customer who says "Why all the if's and but's and maybe's, I usually just walk away. If you want a cheap install, I'm sure that you can find someone to do it. Just remember that sometimes you get what you pay for but you never get what you don't pay for.

Caveat Emptor

jp_2

i think i can answer that steve

take some assumptions:

no insulation(1914) to insulated should get you 1/2 heatload from previous. he did claim calculated 70Kbtu.

2nd, design days are usually 3-4weeks a year at most? then you have the fall, spring and most of winter to modulate.
then how often here is stated that boilers are STILL over sized??

and remember, the TT solo is 110Kbtu.

why can't a mod/con run full bore all the time anyway?

Guy Woollard

Prestige

Central Mass is my territory. I will contact my wholesalers for some installer recommendations for you. I personally live in Southern MA, so once this gets underway, I would love to come out and see the job.

I will get back to you directly regarding the particulars.

Guy

Steve Ebels_3

They'll run just fine flat out.

Same as any other boiler. I was mainly concerned that He get someone in there that will examine the system as a whole unit and see what would work best instead of just throwing a boiler, any boiler at it and hoping for the best. If he's dealing with existing rads and some leftover piping and trying to put it all on one or two zones he may well have some balancing issues if the rads are not piped correctly. As you well know JP, water takes the path of least resistance and the 15-58 on the TT may or may not provide what is needed to the rads. If it doesn't then he's looking at primary/secondary pipng which is just a tad different animal than direct connection to the system. I know the guy is trying to make the right choice because he's here asking questions. Just trying to help him consider all the angles.

jp_2

i agree,

gotta do it right. but the boiler only puts out warm water, you have to make sure it goes where its needed.

if system head pressures too high for the 3 speed, i'd think of a series pump before going to P/S. and of course suggesting TRVs for all rads.

oldhousenut

Based on my radiation to heat loss calcs the ratio is over 2 to 1 and I've been told I can get the temps low enough to condense...

oldhousenut

Steve- Gutted the whole house and installed new insulation, vapor barrier and drywall. I've added the radiation BTUs(based on the Crown Website) and done a heat loss w/ Slant Fins HE2 and for the zones where I have iron-they seem to be way oversized. My price point w/ a TT after rebate is about the same as a good iron boiler.

oldhousenut

Talked w/ TT engineering today and they mentioned direct vs indirect piping even though the install says use indirect. What do you mean by the "15-58"? Thanks for the help.

oldhousenut

jp- I want to have 4 zones(2 ci and 2 copper) The ci zones do 85% of the house and the copper does the new kitchen and the finished attic. I originally planned on having a Taco pump for each zone. Not sure I understand the tech speak about "head pressure" Also, have looked at TRVs but this will cost more labor and won't t stats for the zones give more flex?

Steve Ebels_3

OK

If I were your guy and I was looking at your system the way you describe it and I had verified that the rad piping was adequate..........I'd be jumping up and down trying to persuade you to just run the on board circ and install TRV's on all the rads. Forget the multiple circs and the circ relay panel, the thermostats and the wiring. After it was done you would have a house you would never want to move out of, at least from a comfort and efficiency standpoint. There's nothing like a big ol' CI rad sitting there idling a 115* on a chilly winter's day. It's like having the sunshine in the room all the time. On off t-stats are a dis-service to iron rads IMHO. They are capable of soooooo much better comfort than that.

PS: Using a TRV on each one, you effectively have as many zones as you do rad's. All that system capability and only one circ.

oldhousenut

Would you recommend using t stats and pumps for the new copper zones? Thanks..

jp_2

15-58

sorry, we were using shorthand there.

it refers to the grundfos internal pump on the TT presitge solo 110.

Steve Ebels_3

You could...........

Or you could do TRV's on the BB zones also. I'd recommend that you install a single programmable stat for the whole house to act as a high limit and to provide setback if desired. It'll connect directly to the Prestige to call it on or shut it down. This type of setup would be a perfect application for one of those new variable speed Wilo circs. Dial in the head you want to maintain and forget it.

Forgive me........I'm starting to drool on the keyboard.

[Deleted User]

Why NOT use a modcon on cast iron??

Of course, I commonly ask the question, "Why use anything BUT a mod con, which is my modus operandi...

Do you leave your car engine running at 3500 RPMs when you're stopped?

Just wondering...

ME