Weil-McLain rep blew me away (Steamhead)

Unknown

I find may contractors who will not touch steam and when they find a steam system replace it with FHW. If it is Powerpile they do not know how to troubleshoot it so they replace it. One very large company here in RI replaces just about everything. I have no reason to blame the manufacturers as many of the reps are young and have no idea what took place in this industry many years ago. They just need to be educated. That is the job of those of us who have some knowledge and feel that putting some work into a good system and bringing it up to snuff is the way to go.

Steamhead and I talked about this several years ago when he attend my seminars. Here in RI we have many steam systems in the inner city with absentee landlords who will not repair or fix anything they just have it removed or let it go until it is beyond repair. Getting someone to allow you to spend the time, labor and parts to repair these old systems can be tough in some areas.

Steamhead (in transit)

Not gonna mention names on the Wall.....

We're looking at replacing a wildly oversized boiler on a Vapor system, 771 square feet EDR or so, and are investigating the possibility of doing lo-hi-lo firing for better system efficiency. Looking at the W-M 3-80 and getting conflicting burner information so I decided to call W-M.

I was told that since (according to this person) you can't get parts for Vapor systems anymore, and no one knows how to work on them, their position is- convert it to hot-water!?! I got off that phone as fast as I could.

Obviously this person has not visited the Tunstall or Barnes & Jones sites......

Obviously W-M is in the business of selling steam boilers......

There is still a huge installed base of steam and Vapor out there, enough that many of us base successful businesses upon maintaining them.....

And he must not have seen a building damaged by a botched conversion, or one that didn't heat properly. Is he as a person, and W-M as a company, going to share the liability here or leave the contractor out in the cold when the lawyers come calling?

As much as we like the 80 series, if W-M would rather have us use someone else's boiler, this is a great way to do it. And if any higher-ups at W-M would like to talk about this, e-mail me your phone number and I'll call you.

Sorry for the rant, gang, but I had to get this out there. Anyone else had this experience?

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J.C.A._3

I haven't heard it...

But I'd be interested to know what the outcome is.

Does this guy know who he's dealing with? (I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if he did..he would have passed you along to someone who did!)

Some people just can't be saved Steamhead. Try for another person at the tech line. If it doesn't happen the first time...give it another shot. SOMEONE there HAS to know the whys and be able to answer your question. Chris

Steamhead (in transit)

Shouldn't matter

who's calling in, right? Everyone should get accurate information...... for the record, I didn't say I was "Steamhead", just the co-owner of All Steamed Up, Inc. in Baltimore.

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Norm Harvey

I hear you Frank, you see that kind of thing with alot of people these days (usually younger) They would rather make up an answer than humbly consult a superior.

As business owners we know that behavior like that loses customer confidence and dollars.

Im not a fan of WM but the support staffer you spoke with is likely not representitive of how the company would like to handle its contractor relations.

At least they're not outsourcing their tech support to India like many other companies.


All that being said, its hard to find good help these days, in any industry.

burnerman_2

so true

just go to a local quick mart 4 coffee new faces almost daily no different then the guys on the phone they get paid regardless should tell his boss course he may read it on here see ya guys coffee is waitin at the horn royboy

ttekushan_3

Steamhead,

I am getting freaked out about the responses from the people representing these steam boiler makers on the phone. Its no wonder that they can't begin to understand the reasons for modulating the firing rate on a steam boiler. They know absolutely NOTHING about the steam heating medium.

Last year I consulted on a job where the client had already decided on a "Famous Maker" boiler company's product.* I was there to make sure it was sized and piped correctly, do the combustion and stage fire it, test traps, etc.

When the client called the company in question as to why they don't provide a motorized flue damper on their commercial steam models, the person on the phone proceeded to tell him that he had the worst heating system in the world and discussing efficiency was totally moot. I KID YOU NOT.

When we were done with the installation, it worked beautifully and efficiently. My client by that point was really ticked off at the company for their attitude and misinformation. My self employed client said angrily, "I guess if they'd have to THINK, it would sound too much like W-O-R-K." This segued into an interesting conversation about the level of intellectual laziness that abounds today, but I digress.

How are we supposed to communicate with these companies on the subject of steam boiler efficiency (and modulating firing rates, etc.) when their first line of contact with the user/installer lives in this dark myopic world of sheer ignorance? Are we to assume that these employees are speaking out of their own ignorance or is it representative of the company's outlook? We should be forgiven for wondering.

As far as I can tell, Glenn Stanton of Burnham is one of the few who is truly knowledgeable on the subject of steam efficiency. This might help explain the wonderful MegaSteam. Not to detract from Mr. Stanton at all, but shouldn't his counterparts at other steam boiler manufacturers be as knowledgeable on the technology they are responsible for representing?

I liked Mark Eatherton's (possibly tongue in cheek) suggestion that we form some sort of association for the restoration of steam knowledge and advancement of "best practices" in steam heat operations. Most of this is lost knowledge, but progress should be part of the picture too.

I know its easy to talk about since we are out there actually doing what we advocate, and getting the results. Any independently wealthy knowledgeable schmoozers out there?

We know the story. You'd think more manufacturers would care to pick our brains for the betterment of the industry.

-Terry

*Boiler maker's name available as an anagram on request. Don't want to name names, you know. ;-)

Dan Foley

W-M

Frank,

I would hate to condemn a manufacturer based on one person's response. I agree with you, though, that they should disseminate accurate information. Try getting ahold of Bill Price out of the Philadelphia office. I am sure he could help you or refer you to someone who can. Best of luck! - DF


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Mitch_5

When it comes to steam the rep to call is not a boiler rep

I would contact George Carey at FIA. All the boiler does is just that boil the water. You want the control people.

Just my $0.02

Mitch S.

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Leo

Today's Work Ethic

Too many people today do not care, period. If you go to various heating sites as I do you see the same names over and over with very few changes. Yet there are hundreds more guys out there doing work some good some not. Take a good company, one bad apple can ruin it for years. With all the respect we have here for Glenn and Burnham they once had a guy in my area now long gone who created a bad taste that lingers today. Steamhead try again and if you get a good guy let him know what you were told.

Leo

Weezbo

not that i am entirely enamoured with Weil Mvclain myself buh,

i would consider the rep's reply to be the opinion of one uninformed employee...

get a second opinion.

Timco

Well Frank, It would appear that you are just out of a job and should be doing more hot water I guess. That's a shame. Wethead has a certain ring to it, eh?

Tim

nosirra1Arrison

WM reps

I have run into both disinterested reps and way beyond the call of duty reps from Weil McLain. Remember it's a big company. Don't give up. You may have to do a little searching, but there are some real good people working there.

I was frustrated exactly like you BUT it has worked out very well for me.

Fred Harwood_2

WM Boilers

Steamhead, about a year ago I consulted on the installation of a WM boiler for a 3,000 EDR vapor gravity job. The installation instructions were spot on, as was the help of rep Dan Foley, I think his name was. Once we got the header properly installed, the unit performed perfectly.
Also, Dan suggested a novel way to make up the Vaporstat plumbing so that it could also be blown down once a year. Because of the Vaporstat control, we removed the BRTs and air receivers as well. Again, second season, perfect performance.

RonWHC

Weil is not the

same company I've dealt w/ for over 35 years. They've tossed most of their field types & gone to Reps. The last Rep, down our way, never turned thumbs down on any installation. No matter how bad it was. Or how badly the end user was being served. Moving product is the name of their game. Musn't p _ _ _ off equipment buying contractors.

Now use the Mass. guy's steamers. Sweet. Drier steam - no matter how dirty the water gets, no bolt-it-together flue collector, & lower stack temps across the line.

Don't know of any burner, oil or gas, that does lo-hi-lo down @ 2.3 GPH. Must say though. The EZ-3HP Carlin is sweet in the 380. Have to look through the port to confirm it's firing.