New Boiler Advice - Very Confused

[Deleted User]

homeowner here.

from what I can see, you may not be comparing apples to apples...EK 2000 vs. the other systems mentioned. Also, I would not consider price a deciding factor. The "parts" are so similar nowadays, its the installer that makes or breaks the install. That said, some like the ek 2000 others feel it all marketing. if you are sticking with oil I would recommend getting a quote on a 3 pass boiler with a small indirect water tank and outdoor reset control. All the major brands sell 3 pass boilers, or so it seems. Also, your BTUs seem very high, I would recommend a proper heat loss calc and have the boiler sized appropriately.

Samuel

New Boiler Advice - Very Confused

We currently have a 22 year old Weil Mclain oil fired boiler that heats our home via baseboard hot water. We have a separate hot water heater that is powered by the oil(with electric as a backup)

The boiler is starting to have things routinely break down a few times each winter , costing us money, so we have decided to pre-emptively replace it.

Our fuel oil company offers us a peerless costing $5600. A reputable plumber offers us a Weil Mclain Gold series costing us $5100. He is also suggesting we use what is called a tankless coil, which will allow us to get rid of our hot water heater tank. Our hot water needs are not huge as it is 2 people, no children. One more local heating oil company offers us a Burnham for $5400. Each of these units I believe is about 100,000 BTU, as our house is not large at at 2200 square. We have 2 zones right now.

Each of these companies claims that the new boilers will see significant fuel savings from our current 22 year old until due to the efficiency.

Then, we decide to speak with a company that sells a System 2000 unit. They claim these new Weil Mclain, Peerless, and Burnhams will not see much, if any savings from what we are used to, that their unit is the only one that we will see dramatic savings with vs our current oil consumption. This System 2000 unit is $2500 more than anything I have looked at. However if this representation of the savings is anywhere near accurate, it might be worth considering? They also say that is I were not to do their boiler due to the cost, that it would make sense just to have my boiler cleaned, get a new burner and regulator, and that would help, as the rest of the boiler is just a cast iron box that should hold up

As you can tell I am totally green at this and just started doing some self-learning. Can anybody with any experience shime in with any suggestions regarding the above situation? It will be greatly appreciated

Roland_4

Boiler Choices

Hi Samuel,
You are about to be educated by some of the most generous, knowledgeable folks in the heating industry. You won't walk away confused if you stick with it. Ask lots of questions and do your homework. It will be time well spent.

ed wallace

as i understand your choices are
no 1 a peerless no tankless
no2 wiel mclain with tankless
no3 system 2000 with a storage tank that does away with a waterheater that has a limited life vs an indirect with a much better warrenty system 2000 best choice

mtfallsmikey

Have you looked into gas?

Do you access to natural gas? LP is another option, but my point is changing to gas to be able to effectively use a mod-con (modulating condensing) boiler with outdoor reset control. I'll let others explain the concept to you, but the fuel savings will be a lot more than any new oil boiler. good luck!...mfm

Samuel

Boiler Choce - Very Confused

Well, to be honest to first 2 people I spoke to looked at my current hot water heater and never mentioned any changes to that setup and simply gave me the price for the new boilers. The 3rd person who was selling the Weil Mclain was the one who actually looked more thoroughly, asked how much water we use, then suggested we use a "tankless coil" which is attached to the Weil Mclain boiler, and not use the separate hot water heater any more. Frankly I do not know the advantages or disadvantages of using a tankless coil, vs our current set up with a 12 year old hot water heater. So any enlightenment on this aspect of the purchase will be very much appreciated

burnerman_2

word of advice

no matter which system u choice be sure and go with a co that has been around awhile we service all makes and models i have in the past worked on new boilers by bad installs u may save upfront but pay later when repolacing get a new feed valve air scoop expansion tank it is much easier doing this when the system is off and drained then u can have reliable heat 4 a long time. my choice burhamn with the tankless coil we have had a lotta of good feedback on these and i feel are easy to clean and parts at any supplier(even new boilers become old after awhile) 2cents from royboy

chapchap70_2

What keeps breaking on the Weil-Mclain that is expensive to fix? If the direct fired water heater is 12 years old, there is no telling how much longer it will last. I don't know what you plan to do near term but when the direct water heater fails, I would put the money needed for a new one into a boiler/indirect combo rather than replacing the water heater. Indirects add to the cost some but are more efficient than tankless coils and direct fired.

I don't see a new pin type boiler saving more than 10% unless the one you have now is oversized and/or expensive controls are added. It is more efficient to heat your domestic water with the boiler instead of a direct fired water heater because heat is always lost up the chimney with direct fired. There is also less maintenance because there is one burner instead of two.

I like the System 2000 even with the increased costs because of the payback in fuel savings over the life of the boiler. Brookhaven lab studies show that this unit is on par with or better than modulating/condensing boilers and outdoor reset. If you get one installed, make sure you have them pipe combustion air from outside; also known as fresh air intake. This will save you additional fuel.

If you do a search on my handle with "System 2000" in it, you will be able to see what I and others have posted on it. Their website is www.system2000.com

Bob Forand

Tankless coil boiler

Hi Sam - There are many trains of thoughts on tankless coil boilers. Back in the day, boy doesn't that seem many years ago, when oil was much less expensive as a fuel, tankless coils were a good choice. The problem with a tankless coil boiler today is that the boiler is always maintaing temperature to satify the hot water coil. Even during the summer months, the boiler is always firing up to remain hot. Now IMO, a boiler with an indirect tank is a better option. An indirect tank stores hot water. The boiler heats the water for storage when needed. The boiler is now called a cold start boiler. If you decide on an indirect setup please look closely at the indirect you choose. Each manufacturer will list a degree per hour loss. This is the temperature degrees that are lost through the jacket while the water is being stored. You obviously would want to look at the lowest degree per hour loss. I think that the Superstor Ultra is pretty low. Now another good avenue is a heat only boiler, sized appropriately for the heat loss of your home, with outdoor reset, and a instantaneous water heater for your DHW needs. There are good choices in both oil and gas for these. Again this appliance is only used when you have a need for hot water. It does not store anything. IMO - System 2000 is the better of the choices that you have listed,they will save you fuel over the life of the boiler, however, make sure there is more than one dealer in your area in the case you ever need repairs. It is a bad situation to be in if you can only go to one contractor for your service and repairs. Hope this helps...

Samuel

Tankless Coil

Thank you Bob, this was very enlightening for me. It is almost overwhelming to digest all this, in addition to finding a trustworthy installer. Luckily my current unit is still working so I have some breathing room to learn from these posts and make an informed choice. Thanks again to all

GW

I feel your pain

one factor that you need to consider is 'how long you'll own this house'. if it's short term, throw money at your current boiler. If it's several years, but the cheaper USA made stuff you were quoted on. If it's longer-term, you may want to get some prices on the Euro brands (triple pass as previously mentioned).

I would recommend doing the "whole package" if you can swing the investment; we always quote "indirect" water heaters which save you money.

There are cheap install jobs, and then there are quality install jobs. The pros here can sniff both out in mere seconds (a picture of the install tells the whole world what's been done).

I've never been a S2000 beleiver, but they have a strong following. Check out the Viessmann and the Buderus, and consider the outdoor reset control, and consider making your main living zone operate with "constant circulation". Be aware that many heating guys don't install this stuff (they would rather stick with the stuff their grandfather installed).

It's all very confusing I'm sure, but if you really want to learn you'll be pretty smart in no time!

Gary

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Steamhead (in transit)

Sam, has anyone

actually calculated the heat loss of your house?

Or did they just look at the label on the boiler and offer you the same size, or measure the amount of baseboard and size the proposed boiler from that?

If no one has done a heat-loss calc, keep looking.

As far as specific boilers go- you don't want another vertical-flue pin-type boiler. These are much more difficult to service and can be more prone to sooting up. I'd go with a three-pass type that is more efficient, more forgiving and can be cleaned from the front (and the back also on some). Examples are the Biasi, Burnham MPO, Buderus G115, Slant/Fin Eutectic, Solaia and others. You really can't go wrong with any of these if it's properly sized. The Burnham MPO is very quiet when running, if that's important to you.

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Floyd

WM Ultra oil...

Get the WM Guy to quote the Ultra oil three pass boiler with and indirect tank.. it will give you the same results as the 2000....should be less money, also.
Of course as always, it's not the equipment that you need to worry about, it's the knowledge of the installer...or lack of...

floyd

Tinman1

Definately go with an indirect for your hot water needs. Stay away from the "pin type" boilers. Go with a low mass 3pass boiler like the Biasi or Pensotti type. System 2000 is a great system but you could do as well for a lot less $$. Just my two cents worth.

tim smith

I question the need for replacement

Technology has come a way's in standard cast iron oil boilers but not that far in 22 yrs. Would have to see the boiler but I wonder? Tim Just wondering:) maybe a good tuneup and some control changes would be better.

Robert O'Connor_12

which one?

I prefer an indirect but now I'm wondering if there are any real efficiency numbers to say which is more efficient. If the boiler holds between 12-20 gallons and a tank-less displaces some of that making total volume less verses the 12-20 plus another 6-15 for the indirect I would think you would need to burn more fuel just because there is more water ..no?

Each have advantages and disadvantages I would go with the WM Ultra with a plus indirect just so I wouldn't have to deal with the tank-less tapings which over time always leak and everyone who has ever tried to change a coil knows the inherit risks involved.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Kate_4

Question about restarting hot water on System2000

Hi there,
My oil company came yesterday to repair and do a maintenance check on my furnace. A new heat exchanger was installed.

My heat is fine, but I have no hot water. The company can't come tonight, but said to hit the hot water reset button, which is near the words "Reallia" or something like that.

I went to the website for EK and System 2000 to look at specs, but couldn't find anything.

I just don't see it. The reset for hot water is not on the control panel, and the lights are on for "hot water" and everything else.

The furnace is installed in a closet and the holding tank is in the small closet next to it. It's an awkward set up.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Kate