Will inspections be a benefit?

Larry (from OSHA)

Hey, not a problem. You're not the first guy thats given me crap about what I do. I appreciate your apology, but not necessary.

The whole thing with responsibility between those who do stuff and those who look at it is a huge issue. We can talk about this until we're blue in the face and I don't think it will go away. Dave Yates has much experience with this that he has shared both here and elsewhere very eloquently and he's just one guy. I'm sure that everyone has plenty of these stories.

Bottom line with regards to my original point is that my personal belief is that the industry as a whole needs to step up and somehow try to make sure that installers have the knowledge to make safe installs - inspections or not.

Take care,

Larry

Larry (from OSHA)

Please look at this story

and give your opinions. This tragedy could have been prevented at a number of places in the story, but now going forward, what will be most beneficial to everyone to get good, safe installations?

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/12950671.html

Larry

Timco

Some boilers have a checklist that does cover propane conversion and checking everything from clearences to CO to draft. A combustion analysis would have prevented this as well. The city bears responsibility for signing off I would think, but my inspectors would pass a install if the unit was putting out 10,000+ ppm. An analysis and the checklist must be made manditory to prevent this. Here you cannot buy boilers unless you have passes the gas co.'s cert class but that does not mean the instructions were followed. Unless the inspector reads the instructions on all installs, he will not know either...they are rarely ex-radiant contractors. Inspectors should be using analyzers.

Tim

Dan Sedens

Larry

What a tragic story considering all the knowledge that is out there at this time. Inspections will only help if inspectors are mandated to keep up to date with manufacturers specifications and installation recommendations. Although, in my belief it doesn't really help unless there is some sort of repercution for improper installation practices. I am not saying that it should fall on them completely. I DO beleive that they should not be found without blame. It is up to us to keep up with new technology and safety requirements but it is up to them to keep up with us. So many times I see inspectors making up their own interpretation of the MA code however I am more than comfortable saying that they generally go above and beyong manufacturers recommendations. A bit of a pain on the *ss but still looking out for all of us. Sorry for the long post. The question is not will inspections help. The Question is What is the competency of the Inspectors? and what is the homeowners recourse after installation.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_8

check list

Larry,

I've been expecting a tragic story like this one. I offered to work with the PA Inspectors College to establish check-lists for our inspectors. My offer was rejected outright and their response was that check-lists for inspectors would be too regimented!

Here's the inspection that prompted my call to them: http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=644

That's also not the first time I've heard that excuse of "we're not responsible for an inspector's actions". I was asked to testify on behalf of a condo assn where two sanitary sewer lines had been run up-hill the wrong direction for more than 45' (because the installer had encountered a vein of rock). Both were 12' deep & both had been 'inspected'. We video'd both lines, dug them up, documented the problem, jack-hammered the vein of rock, and installed new lines. The township solicitor interrupted my testimony to say they're not the least bit interested in what we found and that their inspector (and the township) are not at all responsible.

The current system is broken. Fixing it won't be easy, or quick. Fixing it won't be possible unless a huge shift in attitutes takes place and those in charge accept responsibility for their (in)actions. In order to even attempt repairs, we would all have to work as a team.

Larry (from OSHA)

Thanks for the responses

Tim.

Your points are valid. As I see it, looking at install directions would be a good idea, and while the city "should" bear some responsibility for overseeing this install, typically, cities, counties, states, etc. are held harmless by their actions or inactions. As far as inspectors using analyzers, I think that's not going to happen any time soon. As good an idea as that is, you can most likely see the can of worms this would open up.

Dan,

You make excellent points. Having both inspectors and installers knowledgeable of the requirements that the manufacturer of the equipment has in place would make these types of incidents much less likely to occur. Unfortunately, the way things appear to work is that responsibility for mistakes in installations will continue to fall on the installer, even though an inspector has looked at and signed off on it.

Requiring that inspectors keep current with the technology being installed does not seem to be to be too much to ask.

Your last questions, "What is the competency of the Inspectors? and what is the homeowners recourse after installation." is of course the $64,000 question.

Dave,

Somehow I knew you would weigh in with your story of Hector the inspector. (seems fitting) The frustration that you and others in the business go through with stuff like this has to be monumental. As you note, fixing this ain't going to happen any time soon since those that could make a change would be placing themselves in a position of liability.

I am somewhat conflicted about this because in my job, I am protected from being sued or called to court for third party actions by state statute. This appears to be standard practice for people that enforce codes and laws. While I suspect that there are very good reasons for this, I suppose that if we were subject to this, we would all either be more careful or get out of the profession. It still wouldn't fix the unlicensed, non-permitted people that continue to install less than wonderful or safe heating systems. And so that continues to be a big problem that regulations won't solve, but perhaps the industry can help to mitigate by providing and encouraging more easily attainable training for safe installations.

Larry

Timco

So if you are sent or called to my job site and either don't say anything about my lack of hard-hat in a hard hat area or tell me that I don't really need that thing and I get hit by a falling tool, there is no recourse against the state or you? Even if you, the 'inspector' were extreme in your neglegence? What if this neglegence results in a death? No accountability at all??? Dose that make the inspector a glorified parking enforcement officer that's just there to hand out fines and make $$$ on violations? Where does the $$$ go that OSHA collects from fines?

Tim

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_8

grates on my last remaining nerve!

Larry,

I threw Hector (his real name, BTW) under the bus because it was such a clear example and true story. There are dozens of other stories similar in nature that I could tell. To Hector's credit, he was on time. Lately, we have one inspection outfit that will only give us AM or PM and we're expected to stand idly by waiting for their arrival and blessing. As I expected, other inspectors are beginning to follow that 'new' guideline. The latest was our city's third-party inspection agency. In spite of our giving them well in excess of 24-hours notice, they wanted us to leave a water service ditch open during freezing weather and over a weekend. No dice - I gave them a time-frame of two hours and if they failed to appear, we were closing up the ditch and completing the work. They didn't show - we buttoned up the job and finished our work on time. I am no longer willing to wait for incompetent folks who can't or won't do their jobs - even when they do show up.

But, the can of worms you've opened in this last post really gets my goat! I wasn't going to go there. That's the salt rubbed in the wound for we professionals who are licensed and do obtain permits and participate in the inspection farce. Unlicensed hacks who do not bother obtaining permits operate in plain sight with absolutely no fear of retribution. Why? "Because it costs too much to prosecute them." And that's an exact quote from codes officials in the City of York, PA. In addition, codes enforcement in my area is strictly a 9-5 deal and it's just for those who are licensed. Anything outside those hours or over weekends is ignored - even if it is reported.

I sit on Springettsbury Township's Plumbing Board. It has never met formally & is therefore a formality only. A plumbing contractor licensed in Lancaster obtained a courtesy license here and later installed the PHVAC in a new bank - without a permit & no inspections. The building officer discovered this while performing the occupancy inspection and he called the PI. The PI called me to ask what I thought the twp should do. First - immediate license suspension; second - fine, the largest fine that can be levied; third - prosecute; and fourth - if there's no cooperation, make the GC tear it all out and start over. Turned out the GC was in cahoots with the plumber, so I told them he too needed to be fined and prosecuted. The plumber told the township he not only wasn't going to obtain a permit and get inspected, he would come back and work in Springettsbury Twp any damn time he pleased - without permits. So, what happened? They suspended his plumbing license. That's it. So now they've etched it in stone - they can't possibly hope to ever prosecute anyone for this offense beyond suspending their license.

I'd love to be part of the solution, but I'm not willing to tilt at windmills. Our local state legislators know my feelings and they know I stand ready to speak to the house & senate in Harrisburg on these issues. I'm willing to do more than my share, but they've got to be on board too.

Larry (from OSHA)

Tim

Like I said, the way it works it that OSHA investigators are exempt from being sued or going to court to testify in third party litigation. I did not make the rules, that's just the way it is. You are certainly free to take this up with your congressman, etc. if you want. As far as where the money goes, here in Minnesota, we are a state plan state like Utah (I think that's where you are) our funding comes 50% from federal OSHA and 50% from the Minnesota workers compensation special compensation fund. As far as where the fines go, I believe the money goes back into either that fund or the Minnesota general fund. I tell employers that I don't work on commission and they all appreciate that.

Ya know Tim, I don't know what experiences you've had with OSHA where you are, but here in Minnesota we try real hard to protect employees from hazards that they may encounter on the job. The only tools that the legislature has given us is citations with penalties.

I am very fortunate that the vast majority of employers in Minnesota care about the people that work for them and recognize that complying with the OSHA regs can not only prevent injuries and fatalities but actually save the company money. Talking with some of my counterparts in other parts of the country, I believe that not all employers care at that same level.

Please feel free to discuss this or anything else with me either on or off the Wall. I do appreciate your input and I've gained plenty of insight from you and everyone else that participates here.

Larry

Timco

Larry,

I really do owe you an apology...I never meant to come across as bothered by OSHA, I just used you as an example of an authority that can make mistakes and is exempt from liability, even if the neglegence is gross and results in death. I am very certain that OSHA does much good and certainly has improved the safety conditions on many jobs. How many times have tradesmen heard someone say or said " I am glad OSHA didn't see that" or something similar. You guys have changed the way every worker on a jobsite thinks. I really am sorry I came across that way. It was certainly not intended. Yes, I am freezing in Utah...

Tim

Steamhead (in transit)

There will never be

enough inspectors to check everything.

If it not in the installer's heart to do the right thing, to do it the right way, to take pride in one's work, no inspector in the world will be able to put it there.

That said, another set of eyes with a functioning brain behind them looking at an install may forestall a fatal outcome because mistakes do happen even with the best of intentions.

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