Lochinvar Knight Boilers....a plug!

Robert McRae, NYS Dormitory Authority, Albany, NY

Thanks Mark. Our drain piping through the slab is PVC, but the existing drain line we are tapped into is cast. I'll take your suggestions and add the ph adjustment and the copper too. You can't be too careful. Our guys in that building are very good at keeping things clean, and I suggested to them that they flush some fresh water through the trench drain every once in a while.

Robert McRae, NYS Dormitory Authority, Albany, NY

Lochinvar Knight -- What a nice package!

For those of you looking for a sleek, efficient gas fired condensing boiler, I can tell you the Knight fits the bill. We just installed 3 of their 500Kbtu units in one of our buildings, replacing two aging and leaking Weil McLain cast iron sectionals. The boilers are used in a VAV reheat system. We expect to be able to keep our hot water reset schedule to about 140 degrees max, so we should see mid 90s efficiencies. The boilers have quite a sophisticated control system built in, but we have a fully integrated Andover Controls system we chose to use to control them. Lochinvar's accessories are easy to install and interface -- low & high pressure gas switches, low water cutoff, manual reset hi-limit controls connect directly to the board. Couldn't have been easier. And they're so quiet that we have to look at the display to see if they're running. Anyway, I'd be happy to share our experience with anyone curious or considering this type of boiler. And no, this is not a paid advertisement! I have always believed in trying the cutting edge technologies, and passing on the experience to as many people as possible who may benefit. Some pics are attached. One item of note: we put a trench drain into our slab to make it easier and much neater running the safety relief, drain and condensate piping.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Actually I have been in the business a long time and have "almost" decided to replace my old boiler with one of the Knight's. I like the fact that the heat exchanger is stainless steel (at least I think it is) which I would prefer over aluminum.

Being an "old timer" I am resistant to new technology which is bad. I sure don't want a dog in my own house. I like the modulating aspect, the fact that it is sized close to the load and the efficiency. However part of me says it can't be a boiler if it aint cast iron or steel.

Go ahead, somebody push me over the edge!

Ed

[Deleted User]

Misnomers...

Ed, The only REAL "boilers" exist in steam heating systems. All others are simply "btu converters", changing fuel btu's into thermal btu's.

There are low efficiency converters, and HIGH efficiency converters. These new "converters" are quite the deal as you well know. I've said it before, adn I'll say it again, I do NOT understand why ANY "boiler" manufacturers are even still manufacturing the conventional methods of heat converters, a.k.a. boilers.

That goes for the Euro boiler manufacturers AND the American boiler manufacturers.

(My ears are ringing already...)

Enough of a push Ed?

ME

EBEBRATT-Ed

HA,HA,HA. Thanks Mark, I think that will push me over the edge. I do more commercial work and have seen the Buderus condensing boiler in operation so I know what the equipment will do.

I certainly respect your opinion and that of others on the WALL that do a lot of resedential work. I don't consider resedential work easier or less demanding than commercial--quite the opposite. If it works in a house with demanding customers it will work anywhere.

If anyone has any more experence with the Knight boilers I'd be interested to here them.

Thanks,

Ed

gerry gill

yup, we don't even offer

cast iron for a water boiler anymore..people would be nuts not to use a high efficiency water boiler..i just put in a knight a few weeks back..was real nice..still trying to decide which i like better tho, munchkin or lochinvar..thats a real pretty install pictured above..you guys do very nice work..i like your trench drain also..good idea..i may steal it ;-)

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[Deleted User]

If I may make a suggestion....

First off, beautiful installation.

The pH of the condensate coming off of these puppies is around 4.5. Low enough to take out the cast iron drain pipes to which they are typically connected. Also low enough to take out concrete.

You might want to drop some crushed marble or limestone into the trench drains to neutralize the acidity of the condensate. Also, amazingly, we find quite the bacterial/fungal growth growing under some conditions. If you add copper sulfate to the mix, you negate any fungal growth, and keep the tree roots out of the sewer.

Keep up the great work, and thank you for doing your part to reduce the carbon footprint of the buildings on which you work. It will come back to pay future generations many times over.

ME

Perry_2

Mark, the answer is easy...

Mfr's still manufacture old style boilers in large numbers for two simple reasons: They are cheap to build, and they tend to last a while.

Looking at Mod-cons. I think things will take off a lot more when a number of people can point to them and say... It's run for 15 years with almost no problems....

Which mod-con design has run for many years and is still being offered. We are still dealing with a maturing technology. The first generation machines failed. The second has had struggles. Most of the machines we are looking at today are 3rd generation design; which is where the curve starts breaking into normal product life. It will probably be 4th or even 5th generation before things stablize out and conventional boilers start into their slide down to a small percentage of the market.

30 years from now people will be able to say that their mod-con is essentially the same as the one their parents had. Now all people can really say is how it has been substaintailly improved from the ones of 5 years ago.

That's what it will take to change. It's the same process for almost all new tecnologies and products.

Dosn't mean that we can't be frustrated that it is not going faster though...

Perry

[Deleted User]

15 years from now...

THat's a LONG time on the time line of hydronic history. 15 years ago you could count the mod con boilers on the American market on one hand, and they weren't modulating.

As I look into my crystal ball, 15 years from now, conventional combustion, as we know it today will be a thing of the past. Hydrogen fuel cells and the like will probably make head way. Imagine a 24 K to 40 K modulating HFC connected to a water to water heat pump. 300 to 500 % efficient, not a measly 100% efficient...like we have today:-)

I for one am not sure I want my heating appliance to last that long. I LONG for something more efficient.

ME

Robert McRae, NYS Dormitory Authority, Albany, NY

Maybe we can all be warmed by microwaves and eliminate the middleman (water) altogether? It's good for [irradiated] beef, right? Hell, we're on our way already -- just think about all the energy we are throwing out there with radio, TV, cell towers, satellites, wireless everything.....that's really the root of global warming I think. We're in a microwave oven and soon we won't need any heat at all! I'm getting into the cooling-only business full time!

clammy

mod con rules

And that's all i got to say about that ,excellent looking job on the straight and square .Would be interested about the fuel savings with this set up compared to old system .As for cast boiler being the best yeah every mechincal system needs service and those who want the cheapest get it as for having to replace a mod con in 10 or 15 years what's the big deal you change your leased car every 3 or do your kitchen over every 10 years for alot more then a con mod costs but it does not make your neigborhors jealous right .I get so many people who want to heat there homes for nothing and that's just what they have in common with there fuel bill too, they don't want to pay for any of it .Until the fuel prices hit what they pay in europe and other countries it's all up in the air .Try talking to some one about a single stat to heat there house and it's no go mimi ,mirco zoning stats everywhere even one for the dog it's to much they don't want to spend it now nor will they spend it later .Big time sorry for the rant again nice job peace and good luck clammy

Mitch_4

reason number 3

There will always be a consumer that will buy the cheapest and not want the latest

terry_5

how many men ,how many days?

Robert McRae, NYS Dormitory Authority, Albany, NY

Two of us mainly, about two weeks including demo, removal & disposal of old boilers, piping, slab, etc., form & pour new slab, install all electric, controls (34 I/O points),water & gas piping, control cabinet building and Andover programming. We did EVERYTHING except some welding that had to be contracted out. We still had to deal with other buildings' problems while we were trying to do our work on that job, so we were interrupted a few times.

Joannie_11

Standing Pilot, Too

We still sell standing pilot units. There are contractors who swear by them, and don't want to even step up to standard efficiency units with spark ignition. So, we still sell standard efficiency and standing pilot units because people still want them. We also sell mid-range and high efficiency units.

So, it's not all because of end-users not wanting to spend the money. It's also because there are contractors that don't want new technology because they want to install and service what they know and trust.

Joannie - Laars Heating Systems

tom_49

standing pilot

Standing pilot!! give me a break. I dont know why they are still legal.

Too bad for the customers that hired a professional contractor ( I use that term loosely ) whos too stubborn, pig-headed, ignorant, etc. ( choose one ) to not be in tuned to the new technologies out there.

We get alot of jobs just because I offer more alternatives to customer problems ( read - COMFORT, BIG energy bills). Most of my customers never heard of the mod/cons until I tell em about them.

I like how Mark puts it "I for one am not sure I want my heating appliance to last that long. I LONG for something more efficient." May I use that one Mark??

The Knight boilers are the cats u-no-what, quiet, eff., all sorts of built-in controls, easy to install and wire.

sorry, ranting as well.

tom_49

standing pilot

> We still sell standing pilot units. There are

> contractors who swear by them, and don't want to

> even step up to standard efficiency units with

> spark ignition. So, we still sell standard

> efficiency and standing pilot units because

> people still want them. We also sell mid-range

> and high efficiency units.

>

> So, it's not all

> because of end-users not wanting to spend the

> money. It's also because there are contractors

> that don't want new technology because they want

> to install and service what they know and

> trust.

>

> Joannie - Laars Heating Systems