Question for the wood experts here

Mad Dog_2

Most of you followed my long journey of renovating my Hundred-year-old Victorian Farmhouse. We did alot ourselves, but left certain things to THe PROS...er that's what I thought. When we were ready to redo the wrap around porch, I wanted to be as historically correct as possible. After a good deal of research on the columns and Gingerbread, I bit my tongue and went with Fypon for the columns, which has worked out well. I really didn't want the "cheap" look (my opinion) of the Trex-type decking for the flooring. I relented on the stair treads and they too are fine. The flooring... The contractor I used insisted 2 1/4" T & G Yellow Pine was fine and that he used it on mansions with great results. I even tried to track down Pressure treated T & G to no avail. We went with a supposedly appropriate finish. Sikkens Gray stain....top side only ...2 coats. All was well for two years........
THEN! The heaving and cracking started. We took down the heaves with a belt sander and reappliled Sikkens. Next season..Worse....some rot now too. We took down bad spots again and this time used a heavy duty 2 part epoxy these use on industrial boats. Worse than ever. Sent pics and question to Old House Journal and they said woood was fine, but that both sidesshould have gotten sealant and silicone in each joint. I asked for a solution, but they didn't bite. My very knowledgeable father-in-law don says rip it all out , shut up, move on, and go with a Trex type decking. I am determined (stubborn as an ****)to try one last repair before the coming winter. I was thining of taking the whole deck down to bare wood, digging out the rot, and trying a few coats of some miracle epoxy or coating on boths sides. What'chall think? Any success stories? All Ears. Mad Dog


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sounds like good money after bad

I'd suggest either a treated wood, or a good outdoor wood like mahogany $ T&G may be a tough go on an outdoor deck. The strips have to be able to move quite a bit.

There are tons of options for manufactured plasticized woods. Some very real looking stuff.

Seems odd the pine would go that quickly. I've built with doug fir and hem-fir over the years. It seems to last with very little finish care.

hot rod

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EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't know. Why not do both sides. You got nothing to loose except a lot of sweat and time. Yellow pine is supposed to be pretty tough stuff--almost a hardwood. How about a layer of poly underneath to keep the moisture out? But any moisture trapped in the wood will probably increase the deterioration.

Ed

John@Reliable_12

Sometimes Father knows best. I used trex type for a couple of decks two years ago at my house. Power washed this summer and look brand new again. P.S. pick a real hot day as the mist from power washing feels great,even can have a beer at the same time,beats painting hands down.

DanHolohan

I spent most of Sunday

poking around Sagamore Hill (going through a serious T.R. phase right now) and they're re-doing the porch with plastic. Looks very nice.

By the way, I went to the grave and spent about a half-hour there. It was raining and I was the only one on the hill. I was listening to "Mornings on Horseback" on the iPod all the while.

jp_2

treated T & G

up here, in the north, Menards has treated 2 1/4 T & G.

with some work you could rip the trex and route T & G into it. I've never used the stuff but it looks like it cuts easy.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

VERY hard to find weather resistant pine in any form anymore. You need slow-grown heartwood from the best trees. Used to be abundant, but long gone...

I fear that you're throwing good money and valuable time away trying to make what you have work. No "miracle coating" to my knowledge.

If you use treated T&G pine, let it weather for a good long time before installing. It shrinks considerably.

For natural wood mahogany (unfortunately) seems to be the best choice for weather resistance. Unfortunate as it's increasingly scarce and really has better uses like furniture and cabinetry--also quite expensive. Heart redwood is a good choice, but most of what's allowed to be cut seems to stay over on the west coast. The old standby in my area-cypress-is now rather scarce and, like redwood, the good stuff tends to stay near where it's grown.

Maine Doug_47

Well, I am sure

we could replace the boiler. But without redoing the piping and some good controls you are not going to see much benefit.....
And yes you can pick the equipment but I recommend we go with a manufacturer we know works.

HaHaHaHaHaHa................!!!

Ron Schroeder

Maddog

In a former life when ever we laid a floor that was exposed to the elements we left a space between floorboards so as to let the air circulate, when they are spaced to close together the moisture gets trapped in the cracks, wet wood swells and well you guessed it the boards buckle and then rot where two pieces meet. Thge first porch I built was 34 years ago the flooring was pine/spruce 2 by 6's painted only on the top and it is still in use.

Good Luck

Bruce

Gordy_2

Eon Decking

Unfortunatley MadDog you will be fighting a battle for life. Outside as suggested by Mike T. "Redwood or cypress". Look at Eon outdoor systems decking products, six colors, and does not look or is cheap, but set it, and forget it. Enjoy the look for years, your time is money. If you are wanting redwood or cypress I know of a couple suppliers if you care to buy bulk Buffalo lumber Co. for redwood. Chances are that the original was old growth tight grained douglas fir. Stays straight as an arrow, and is dimensionally stable.

Good luck
Gordy

P.S. If you do tear out the decking I would dump it in the carpenters front lawn. From a Wood tick to a Fitter.

S Ebels

Here's what's happening

The wood is butted tight and nailed down which does not allow room for normal movement. The finish also appears to be a "solid" type coating which doesn't allow the wood to breath and moisture to move through it.

The result is that the paint cracks along the butt joints allowing moisture down into the wood. It can't evaporate and move through the wood quickly due to the paint effectively sealing the top of the plank. It has to soak in and try to get out the bottom which causes rot. (Is your porch ventilated well underneath?) The wood expands more due to the moisture which causes more cracking and peeling of the paint. Nothing is going to change that. I don't care if you dip the entire plank in the paint. You can't seal the lumber well enough to keep all the moisture out due to nail holes and normal movement of the wood.

So you have to start with a finish that will "breath". This would be a product usually referred to as a semi-transparent stain. It is not a sealer like a paint or a solid color exterior stain. It will allow moisture to evaporate before it can cause rotting.

AFA saving whats there.......You'd have to sand off ALL the existing finish and get down to bare wood. Then apply the semi-transparent stain. It's available in many colors and will shade the wood but not put a solid uniform color over it. You'll be able to see the grain in the wood through it. Valspar used to make an excellent one back in my hardware store days. The Behr brand stuff isn't nearly what it used to be before they went to Home Despot.

Rule of thumb for any wood that is untreated and used outside........It has to be able to air dry quickly. If moisture is trapped in it, it'll turn to junk in three years.

Jon_10

Wood decks

Teak is another good choice, just let it weather to nice gray. But it will cost dearly. Like Steve,I believe said, you can't nail it tight and you can't use a solid type of paint. A semi-transparent stain works best. The best luck with stain has been Cabot's Stains. Used to be highly recommended by Consumer's Report.

Mad Dog_2

I'm going one of two ways.......................................

Last chance repair, which will cost me 2-3 days work and less than a $600.00 in. sanding machine and SOME KIND OF EPOXY or urethane. What if I DROWN it in polyurethane (like a bar)after stripping it...I'll get underneath too. If I can encapsulate it, anit no moisture gettin in no mo', right? or am I thinking like a plumber...never liked carpentry...wood too finicky...atleast with The Steam...you can't do much damage smashing the pipes with a wrench. I will try this and see how the winter treats it...if I fail...that EON stuff looks decent. I've had wacky ideas work before that No ONE thought would work. Any suggestions on a coating guys...Mad Dog

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Rob_32

Mike T's got it.

I used to build wooden boats.

There's no such thing as good pine any more, unless you're salvaging from 60-80+ year old homes. Even the quality of plywood isn't what it was just 15 years ago. Speed-grown, southern monoculture farmed junk. Spongy, unstable.

Tongue and groove in a dynamic environment like your porch is tough, especially with modern pine. Even with good wood, this would be a toughie. It needs to move and breathe. Stain application, not paint.

No amount of drowning, encasing in epoxy, poly, etc. will do it. "Encasing" now would seal in the moisture and bacteria, the stuff will rot, the "encasing" will crack, etc.

Plastic, my boy, plastic. Hurts to say it, but the new stuff is indeed pretty good. How long it really lasts is unknown at this point, but it will definitely look better longer than any but the most expensive, stable, durable exotics.

Don't throw good money after bad. Rip it up, do it right and be done.

Good luck.

Ron Schroeder

Carful

if moisture gets under some of those products it will pop up in chuncks but you might try some Marine Products like McCloskey Storm Coat or valspar

jim lockard

I am thinking

That you are thinking like a plumber Mad dog. Is not the wood going to constant expand and contract against the grain and that in it self is going to cause problems. So Maybe add a swing joint or a nice drop header, somewhere for the wood to expand. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Kevin_42

Cover with plastic? If you wanted plastic, use Trex or the equivilant. If you want a good looking Porch deck, use Mahogany T&G. Run it front to rear. Drill it, countersink, screw into box beam and then plug, sand and finished with Messmers. It'll cost you but you'll love the look. Beats plastic any day. Do not paint. It needs to breathe.

http://www.messmers.com/prod_uh.html
http://www.messmers.com/locator/results_list.php?zip=11001&showsurrounding=1&radius=50&zipsearch=Go

Christian Egli_2

Sweep it all under the rug

Nothing like a casually placed throw rug to hide the defect. Victorians liked the little doilies plastered everywhere. Or something practical like Astroturf. There, invisible. Perhaps a sheet metal plate could cover the problem -it would be indestructible then.

For paints, I kind of enjoy the way either tar, asphalt and coal pitch covers everything quite nicely without calling for fine detailing. Black covers everything so well. Water based emulsions dry quickly but stink for a while. A kerosene base will dry to no smell in a matter of days to a few weeks (depending on the sun and how much you used). Check out the smell first before trying this on the porch or save the feathers for you and I later on... Left over Hercules?

I have quite a bit of stuff painted in tar mixtures. I've always been satisfied with my experiments.

For the urethane and such, I think it will only work acceptably if the boards are separated by a little gap. As it right now, one uniform blanket over all the boards will always get cracked and get pinched when the each piece of woods moves it's own way. (Perhaps there is some excessive flexing and sagging in the area of damage) Modern paints and urethane being much stronger than the wood itself, these paints will always peel away in solid sheets.

Paints also have a tough time holding on to any sharp edge; if your new boards where not sanded to a good chamfer on the corners, the paint layer would have a hard time gripping. When redoing your floor, you could try grooving a little chamfer at each joint, if that seems to be a problem. Or... you could turn over a pail of tar while we sip a Beefeater Martini - with an olive - as the black stuff works itself to a shine.

Gordy_2

Okay Mad Dog

If you want to give it a go again, you got to remember SYP is very dimensionaly unstable so even if you can control the rot by means of coatings. You will still be contending with the buckling.

Most of your treated lumber is SYP (southern yellow pine), and as you know with treated lumber you can spend all the time you want picking straight boards, but in the end when it dries out they will go to hell in a hand basket.

Sikkens is one of the best coatings on the market as you probably noted by its cost. In order to try and get this thing under control I think you need to be using a translucent stain that will allow moisture to enter but more important leave the wood, and you should really coat ALL sides of the boards tounges, and groves butt ends also,
as for the rot BONDO works great as long as you get the rot completley out of the wood but using a translucent stain will reveal these areas.

But remeber that SYP is going to swell profusely when it gets moisture so when you lay them back down leave a shade of a gap between your boards.

This is not a fool proof solution Mad Dog. I think you will be pulling some maintanence every couple of years.



I went through this material selection for my new fence. the old fence which was redwood clear was 45 years old with a coat of stain, and none of the boards were rotten. The Mrs. wanted it higher so we looked at PVC there is a big difference in quality. Eon makes a nice fence, and selection of colors, but for how much fence I have we were looking at big bucks between Eon or good quality PVC. Treated lumber was out of the question due to its inherent trend to warp, and buckle as it dries out so I went with cedar. Cheaper than Pvc, and Eon but more than treated. Coat it with sikkens or cabotts with a hudson sprayer done.

There are not to many coatings that claim to last more than a couple of years before needing reapplication except for One Time Wood which Claims 7 years but is on the internet, and pricey. It is only a natural finish.

Good Luck Dude keep the faith !

If you want a hands on look at Eon HD carries it.



Gordy

Paul Fredricks_3

We redid the porch on our 1928 Bungalow about 12 years ago. The decking was T&G straight grain Douglas Fir, about 2.5 to 3" wide. We replaced it with the same and it still looks great. This 9x12 porch is open on 3 sides and gets lots of weather, but the flooring has held like a rock. I only stained the top and it sits 2' above the dirt.

Bob_41

I'd opt for doug fir or IPE

Dog,

SYP as someone already mentioned is not dimesionally stable it tends to swell and check. Look at treated lumber which is mostly SYP treated now with ACQ (which will not hold-up as well the older CCA treated stuff, plus it eats galvanized and aluminium flashings). I'm afraid that all that movement was caused by swelling and expansion. The wood really need to be kild-dried and primed BEFORE installation and installation needed to accomodate some movement. Now on to the finnish.

Your initial coating of Sikkens was an excellent choice but since its a penetrating oil-based sealer it needed to be removed properly before the follow-on attempts which have failed mostly due to poor surface preparation. Most of the Sikkens products are single coat applications. Your 2nd year topcoat was also doomed to failure without the proper preparation.

What to do now? I would opt for a thorough correct cleaning and removal of the old coatings. The Sikkens dealer can help with the best product to remove the final finish (ie the Sikkens Cetol or SRD whatever you used) I really can't help you on the removal of the epoxy coating although it looks like it's removing itself pretty effectively Try to avoid sanding as that really screws-up the grain of the wood and will cause your coating to not be uniform (I know you were just removing high spots).

If you were to replace I would suggest using IPE which is a brazilian hardwood that can be just georgeous with the right finish (think of indoor hardwood floors beauty). It's definetly top-o-the-heap along with Teak (the newer "farmed" teak is not as good as the old-growth Teak). If you wanted a more traditional look (ie painted porch finish) I would go with a douglas fir, kiln-dried and pre-primed/pre finished. I like the Sikkens SRD in Cape Cod Grey for your application.

Bob

Mad Dog_2

I do see old wood porches

that have held up, I just wonder what kind of wood it is and how it went down. Mad Dog

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Rob_35

old is the operative word

Pine in particular just isn't the same these days. Spruce too for that matter. If you have an old house, check the ends of some of your framing lumber. Count the growth rings and observe the spacing between them. Then compare to the same lumber at your local yard, or even worse, go to HD. They can get some real junk.

Example. My experience in New England: old houses 60-80+ years have 2x4s with 40-130 growth rings. That's some tight, durable stuff. Semi-old houses 30-60 years have 2x4s with 12-40+ growth rings. Still pretty tight, good stuff. New construction? 7-12, maybe 20 growth rings. Spongy, marginal wood. This observation is somewhat biased by where in the tree the boards came from, but in general it's true if you compare similar cuts.

Really good fir might give you what you want in terms of stability, but I would strongly consider plastic. This from a wood devotee.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Polyurethane cannot handle UV exposure. It yellows and peels within a year. I don't believe it possible to "encapsulate" with any coating--particularly since it's already installed and you won't have access to the tongues and grooves.

The old wood porch floors I've seen and worked on around here are not coated on the underside. My understanding is that, like wood shingle roofs, they must be free to dry from the underside as water will ALWAYS make its way through.

If you sand down, I'd suggest high-quality "floor and deck" enamel. For the first coat (presuming bare wood) use 3 parts paint, 1 part paint thinner. Then two additional full-strength coats. Such paints tend to be quite slippery when wet, so not a bad idea to add pearlite or similar to the final coat.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

In my area most are old-growth cypress. Two doors up I saw a repair of a porch using new yellow pine T&G. 3-4 years and it's already in worse condition than the parts that weren't replaced.

As to "how it went down".

I just walked around the neighborhood looking at wooden porches--many of them around here on houses of many styles and sizes built from the 1890s through the 1920s. Many, I believe, are original.

ALL have a decent slope away from the house--looks to be at least ¼" per foot and perhaps ½" per foot. ALL have the floor boards laid perpendicular to the house wall. This true even if the porch turns corners. When they turn corners, framing is similar to a very shallow hip roof to keep positive slope in all directions. ALL have ventilation below and COMPLETELY around--usually via lattice.

Most of the floors are 1" thick. A few are 1¼". A very few are ¾" and I suspect most of these are replacements.

Weezbo

Mad Dog,from the eyes i see,...

there is water saturating parts of the deck. dry is the place it needs to be coming from prior to applying anything over it.

with what you have the deck wont benifit from more paint.

if there is a sheltered area beneath it ,you might consider a hot mop build up. cost a heavy dime these days .

Trex is another way to roll right.

bob young

CALL NORM ABRAMS

Norm is the only one who can solve this dilemna

Vermonster_6

Ipe

If you like the look of it, IPE will be a cost effective solution. 4/4 x 4 face screwed or T&G screw through the tongue. If face screwed you can plug holes. Still you will need to refinish every 3 years or so if uncovered, longer if covered. Refinish= percarbonate cleaner + brightener, then 2+ coats. No finsh and it will silver. You should be able to get 4/4 4" for $1.65 LF or similar. I would avoid 6" width due to cupping risk. I suggest TWP 100 series, Messmers, or Pennofin rosewood (hardwood).

With modern lumber I think a painted floor is a lost cause. Maybe doug fir if you have very good ventilation.

Errol