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Very Sad

Jimmy K
Jimmy K Member Posts: 4
I have a daughter 12 years old, this breaks my heart, just so tragic yet preventable.


  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    Maybe some heads will roll

    now that the lawyers are involved. But this article didn't mention the screwed-up 911/ambulance response that skipped the room they were in. Bet that gets hushed up...... welcome to Maryland.

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  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    it is a tragedy in thought and deed.

    there is a question that buggs me here. it goes like this where were the building inspectors, fire marshals, owner and contractor when this equipment was commissioned?.....

    it does little to solace the family buh i am sure they are wondering the same thing.
  • Jeff Lawrence_25
    Jeff Lawrence_25 Member Posts: 746
    From what I heard

    The system was inspected by the AHJ and passed.

    There will be a whole lot of finger pointing on this one and it's not going to bring back anyone.
  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,472
    I hadn't heard

    Black eye for Munchkin just to be associated with this although it is obviously installation error. My old helper used to complain about how frequently we would install the hanging straps on the flu. There's a reason for it. In this case it may have saved a life. It sounds like the inspectors are grasping at straws. Length of run may have been wrong but that would have turned the boiler off on safety. If the pippe was disconnected from the back of the boiler, now thats a problem. WW

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  • Scott Gregg
    Scott Gregg Member Posts: 187
    The inspector has a lot of blame on this too.

    If they are going to require permits and inspections, but not be responsible for serious oversights then what is the use in having them at all?

    It is also incomprehensible to me that a contractor’s defense is "I ran it like the customer told me too." If he was really dumb enough to do that, and then stupid enough to say it, his cards should be pulled right now and he should be bagging groceries for a living...after he gets out of jail. Where is there department of occupational regulation / board of contractors, on this?

    No it won’t bring back anyone but getting those yahoos away from tools might keep someone else alive.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Sad indeed

    My heart goes out to the families of those that were killed or injured.

    The story however is filled with wacky statements and I see no reason to have mentioned HTP.

    "In addition, the report found that the water heater was not for use in basements or under floor spaces." Not for use in basements???

    The plumbing company is going to get sued into oblivion and so will the hotel.

    I hate to sound like a broken record here, but if you are not testing EVERY combustion appliance you come across this scenario can repeat itself forever.

    It's a matter of life and death.

    Mark H

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  • I'd like to

    know more solid facts before jumping on any band wagons.

    The vent was too long, yet no one can say just how long it was? BS

    Why have we not seen a combustion analysis on this unit? I'd sure as hell want that info if I were at all involved.

    What kind of hangar strapping and at what distance apart? If it's that plastic junk, I'd include them in the lawsuits.

    Maybe the use of PVC for venting issue will be settled as a result of this tragedy.

    If the hotel was informed of the venting violations (assuming there were vioations), then they are responsible too. If they relied on the installer for proper installation and that same work passed inspection, how in the hell are they liable. I know, I know - the lawyers will see to it they are divested of all monies and keep a lion's share of it for themselves.

    It looks like an installer error coupled to an innefective inspection (there's a surprise - not!) that resulted in a real tragedy.

    Might this not be a good opportunity to promote CO detectors? Perhaps make them mandatory for this type of establishment or, perhaps, all public spaces where fossil fuels are utilized?

    So many if only's....

    It's hard to comprehend the we put the vent where we were told by the owner?!? Especially if that location was in violation of HTP's instructions.

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  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,782
    Methane only?

    I thought Munchkins could run on Propane also, once their nozzles are converted? That sure would be one heck of an oversight.

    There is a lot of stuff in that article that makes little to no sense. Evidently, everyone is in damage control and trying to distance themselves from anything they did.

    I wish we had photos from the site.
  • Dennis
    Dennis Member Posts: 98
    Not to derail the issue but,

    this is a wake up call to all you contractors out there.
    The installer may have done nothing wrong, maybe some other contractor thought those pipes were in his way, and just cut them off.
    A resturant in Phila, Pa called, seems water was coming out of the front of a condensing furnace I installed. Upon arrival I found the heater off, but standing in a foot of water.
    I traced the problem to an upstairs condo owner adding a shower to his unit, the 2 inch flue intake line from the furnace to the roof, sure made a handy drain connection.

    We got to install a new furnace, the old one had to much soap, and hair in the burner area. The condo owner had to spend some money.

    The moral of this story is, personal and business asset protect is your only friend in a law suit. Remember you can't buy life insurance after you're dead.

    It really doesn't matter who is at fault, or if it is anyone's fault. Only the lawyers will profit.
    Just for fun go to your county records web site type in your personal or business name, everything that comes up in that search will be taken from you if you have the same situation occur. The lawyers will lien all of you business accounts, properties, and the principals personal assets as well.

    I could just read the head lines, if that furnace/shower drain had killed someone. News Flash! "We have no idea who was at fault, or what really happened, but sources close to this reporter (crystal ball) put the blame with the heater, the contractor, the resturant owner, the builing owner." Who ever has the money will be at fault.
    Just do it, right.
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    History will repeat itself

    This sort of stuff always makes me wonder about where we're going with progress. In the time of the Spanish flu, we all learn, people found it smarter to sleep with windows open... there is something good about fresh air.

    Today, we build hermetic homes, we fit them with ventless appliances and we live in the same space along with our heavy duty mechanicals. The one breathing the last bit of air makes it out alive.

    In the olden days, builders where happy to provide dedicated rooms for the boilers and such -rooms fitted with separate ventilation. Draughty homes made for further safety and fresh air changes. I am sure they learned the hard way about the dangers of indoor living, as we are all over again.

    I am not against progress, nor against change, there wasn't much of safety sophistication in those olden times, nevertheless, I don't sit comfortably next to a flue or smoke pipe that is insufflated with a positive pressure. The positive leaking potential is too great.

    Sadly, here, it was the ultimate risk.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Spot on Dave

    The laywer for the plantiffs got quite a bit of ink in this story, followed by the Fire Marshall.

    The contractor gets one sound bite and it makes him look like a schmuck.

    The only thing that the reporter got right in this stroy is that people were killed/injured and a gas fired appliance was the source. WHY this particular appliance became the source WAS NOT revealed.

    If this goes to trial, I would be willing to bet LOTS of money that something else caused this issue. LOTS OF $$$.

    Stay tuned folks, there is WAY more to this than what we read in the article. I just know it.

    Mark H

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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909

    There are so many inaccuracies and "factual errors" in this report, it makes me wonder if it was written by a fifth grader that took notes from seventh graders that were experiencing a massive sugar high.

    Terribly sad about the fatalities, about the only thing the reporter got right.

    Mark H

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  • John_108
    John_108 Member Posts: 21
    This job is just 10 miles from this hotel

    This is a call I went to for a condensate leak. The first thing I saw was the flue. Starts off with 4" elbows that are not even connected, then switches to 4" flex then to 3" PVC which then runs out the side wall pitched down towards the outside wall 4". Needless to say the unit was tagged and disconnected. Sent the owner a price to repair still no response.
    After talking to the owner I think he and his mechanic brother installed the system. Some other things of note. No drain pan under the unit, condensate was running up hill, all of the supply duct was uninsulated, half of the suction line was not insulated.
    As I was telling the owner all of the problems all he kept saying was "But it's a Goodman" over and over. Unfortunatly there are no mechanical inspections in DE and this is the type of work installed. They are talking about requiring a license but all current buisness license holders would be grandfathered in. I wish they would require passing a test no matter how long you have been in buisness.
    They keep installing them and I keep making money making them right!
  • the reporter

    I was going to e-mail the reporter (e-mail address is at end of article) and had begun typing the message, when it occured to me that might not be wise. The last thing I need is getting dragged into the tide of lawsuits. We're involved in one right now that's seen one group of lawyers fired because they weren't nasty enough (the client lost the first level and appealed). The new lawyer oozes poison. He's a bit over the edge though and broke the law himself by fabricating witnesses and wrote up quotes that were not said by the individuals. Now that he's done that, the lawyer for the side we're working with is waiting until the trial is over and will be filing charges against the other lawyer and his firm. It's getting mighty ugly.

    The mechanical firm listed has a web site and their trucks look neat & clean. The statements included in the news article are too vague to enable any reasonable conclusions. Venting high efficiency appliances poses a serious challenge and there are many issues beyond just the mfgrs instructions (windows, doors, gas meters, etc...) that must be carefully considered. We always confer with owners regarding their preferences, but ultimately it's the listed conditions that dictate safety and final location. The folks who perished don't live too far from here, so that got lots of press when it first occured. In all that time, not one single article has had much in the way of factual information - including this latest one. It'd be nice if someone like John Hall could visit the site, observe things first-hand and write up a column.

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