Stickers assume liability?

singh

What ever happened to homeowner's insurance? Would they not cover a flooded basement resulting from a leaking water heater?
I may understand a faulty install or service if contractor was responsible.
On the other side , I once had a lawyer who told me I would only be responsible for the contracted or billed amount. i.e. If the services I performed was $100 to change a valve and that valve later leaked and caused a flood , I would be responsible for $100 out of pocket,in damages, the rest is covered by my liabilty insurance and their homeowner's policy. Plus any lawyer's fees if any should occur.

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John R. Hall

Where does the buck stop?

I've been in touch with a contractor who is facing litigation over his company's assumed responsibility for a water heater his company has serviced and maintained but did not originally install. The attorney for the homeowner said that the company sticker on the water heater makes it appear that the contractor is responsible for its maintenance, also assuming liability if something should go wrong. I know it sounds a little obvious but the contractor cannot prove that his company didn't install the water heater.

Has this happened to anyone else and what safeguards can contractors take to protect themselves? I'd suggest (no kidding) that the sticker has some disclaimer in small print stating "ABC Heating did not install this equipment and assumes no responsibility for service or replacement directly related to the original installation..."

Kevin O. Pulver

Some attorneys and judges need shot!

That's about the only thing I can come up with to stop this nonsense. Kevin

Brad White_9

Without opening another topic

The only way to stop this nonesense is to start "Loser Pays" litigation reform, much as they have in England. You can sue, but be damned sure you are right going in.

The idea is to discourage not just the frivolous lawsuits but to deter punitive abuse of the courts whereby too many will settle just to avoid being dragged in. Cash is cash. Too many attorneys practice that sort of lucrative behaviour and without remorse.

Kevin has a point. A hollow point perhaps.

The disclaimer makes sense but then, that might be the only reason to have a sticker. Sad.

Shakespeare was right.

Unknown

Amen to that

Kevin. When is all this going to stop and start to be reasonable and make some sense? We are liable for what we do and no more. Even disclaimers do not work because some lawyer will find a way around the disclaimer.

Ken_40

I wonder how

we could service anything in life, and not "assume" responsibility?

If we are self-proclaimed experts, adequately trained in basic safety and the workings and function of an "appliance," does that not also suggest we assume great liability in our working on that equipment?

Being sued for any and everything today is merely a cost of doing business.

Being found guilty in a court of law however, is why we all need insurance, and where the frivolous lawsuit should be resolved properly and thank god, usually is - in our favor!

Of course, all we hear about are the sensational screw ups and lost cases from people buring their laps with "unconsciously hot" coffee from Mickey D's...

Lawyers who promote and profit from the frivolous lawsuits are THE problem, not disclaimers we may engage to avoid such people who will sue, regardless and in spite of any disclaimers we may develop.

Brad White_9

Sure we are responsible, but...

I think the point here is that your sticker could be there along with a dozen others and you can get roped in for things you had nothing to do with. Cast a wide net so to speak.

Forget being found liable, the cost of litigation if you are innocent can alone be ruinous both financially and to your reputation. The bottom feeders know this and this is part of their equation...when the Mafia does it, it is called "extortion". When bottom-feeding lawyers do it, it is called "due process".

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

non-sense, no-sense & sense-less

John,

That doesn't add up IMHO. A sticker with name, address & phone number does not imply maintenance was performed, will be performed or that the "ad" listed there indicates they were the installer.

When we were in the market for a home (bout 15 years ago), we would tour the Sunday open house deals. I, naturally, would head for the mechanical room first to view the quality of work. I'd carry stickers along and tag equipment too. One was in a new home & there were no stickers on the newly installed equipment. There were when I left(G). About two hours later I got a phone call from a realtor telling me our new heat pump wasn't working. A bit confused, it took me a few minutes to realize it was the home we'd toured that morning! Talk about being embarrased. I stopped pasting stickers during home tours.

They're ads, plain & simple. Mechanical contractors delight in placing their stickers over other firms stickers or removing the others first. A sticker-free job site is a blank billboard awaiting stickers.

As for proof regarding who installed the equipment? Check the serial numbers, get the date codes and produce company records from that time period to prove it was or wasn't their company. Manufacturer warranty cards, if filled out and turned in, should indicate who the installer was. However, IMHO the burden of proof regarding who actually installed a given piece of equipment should be the HO's responsibility. Somebody had to pay for the installation! Canceled checks, bills and warranty info from the mfgr should be part of the HO's records.

Just one of many reasons why we maintain accurate records: "That water heater you installed last year is leaking!" Records indicate it was actually installed nine years ago. True story - one that's repeated fairly often. When it comes to warranty issues, memories warp time.

Lastly, petition the court for recovery of all costs associated with defending such frivolous non-sense.

Tis yet another sound reason why combustion analysis equipment with printers is a great CYA ( cover your ****-sets) way to travel the mechanical highway that's lined with carpetbaggers, thieves, muggers and lawyers.

Be careful out there!

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Ken_40

I suppose the better question is...

Should we put a sticker on our work?

If we do, we get advertising, enhanced opportunity to service the equipment when our tag is seen, have our name and # in the only area we want business, etc. Or,

We are a named co-defendent in a lawsuit - by virtue of our name and phone number being on the appliance we may or may not have any culpability involved - for all the lawyers who lurk in darkness to access easily?

Unless we do work we are not proud of, I'd always opt for the sticker, **** the lawyers.

Mark Hunt

John


You said that this man's company "serviced and maintained" the water heater.

What issue has come up that was caused by the original installation? Was it something that could/should have been caught during "service and maintenance"?

Seems that putting a company sticker on something is akin to planting a flag and declaring it "your" property. Not saying it is right.

Could you shed more light on this?

Mark H

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John R. Hall

Mark

The contractor began a service/maintenance plan with the customer after the installation by another contractor. The water heater malfunctioned, flooding the basement. I can't tell you if this was something that could have been prevented by routine maintenance or if it was one of those things caused by abnormal wear and tear. It may come out in the court trial (if it gets that far).

I suspect there is a lot that is going on that I am not privvy to, but as I stated, the focus is on what the attorney said about the liability surrounding the simple use of a sticker.

Brad White_9

I am with you, Ken

Pride in our work comes first. Just the notion of sticking your head above the foxhole. There will always be lawyers and crabgrass. Like you, I prefer to define and persue my life on my own terms.

jackchips_2

John,

is he facing litigation because he "may have installed" the heater or because he "has serviced and maintained" it?

It is a huge distinction. It would also help to know what happened? Replacement of a T&P valve as part of maintenace that flooded a finished basement could remove the original installer and insert the "maintenance" company.

No fan of suits and not taking sides, just looking for the facts.

Thanks,

Jack

Edit: Posted before seeing Mark's questions and John's reply.

Mark Hunt

Well


if nothing else this is a heads up for possible trouble caused by simply advertising on someone else's equipment.

Heck, we used to tear the competitors stickers off equipment and replace them with ours. Never thought that could lead to a lawsuit though.

This is a "sue everybody" society now. Contractors beware!

Mark H

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John R. Hall

Jack

The contractor did replace the T&P valve after the flooding and only later did the homeowner seek damages against the contractor for the basement clean-up. The contractor apparently did the right thing and fixed the problem but the homeowner might be looking for a way to recover money for the clean-up (which is all an assumption on my part).

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

malfunctioned?

In what way? As for assigning responsibility, you'd need to read the service contract to determine what's covered. Most service contracts I've seen contain alot of smoke & mirror stuff that's designed to deliver little more than peace of mind.

A line broke?

The relief valve stuck or went off on high limit?

The tank ruptured?

Thermal expansion damaged?

Boiler drain failed?

Weld-a-let leaked?

Flue tube or combustion chamber leaked?

There's a multitude of potential malfunction areas that would have little or nothing to do with their maintaining the water heater.

Taco could use this case as a solid reason why the WAGS valve can save costs for both the HO & contractor.

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David Sutton_6

i just got this from a friend...

i got this yesterday and it was very intresting.... Its a bit long but realy worth reading...David



This is worth reading.......... so well said. Wow!

DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.

"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:


Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. "Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!

My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"




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Unknown

^&@&amp;$^/!!!

!*&%"@#%&amp;*@%&amp;;!@!!! I'll explain my case after I cools down from reading this post...

Weezbo

friend of mine,...

along time ago said to me ..."i wouldn't put stickers on any piece of equipment were i you."

at the time i was heavy into service work and thought that it would be a way to make sure i had a larger service clientele base...
"you do not need the grief"

"now anything goes wrong they call you."

"and if something happens then they will blame You..."

"with your sticker on it how can you prove you were not the one who "Fixed it" last?"

say joe homeowner puts a plug in the tand p...and is not around after the event, how are you going to prove you were not the one who did that? it is sort of a bad idea when you really think about it.

i still sign my name on my work though...

jackchips_2

Thanks, John.

As a former inspector, here is another thought.

Would the bottom feeding lawyer bring suit against an inspector who left his approval sticker?

I'm totally with Brad on the if guilty you pay, if innocent they reimburse you. Let's see the lawyer politicians vote that in.

Jack

Christian Egli_2

Like with Justin Timberlake and Janet Jackson?

A water heater malfunction? I expect some bra shaped cover just popped off and exposed a nipple and other pipes...

No prayer of winning that one. Anyone can get sued for no reason whatever at all, sticker or no sticker, so why should you care?

We've been smeared in a frivolous lawsuit coming all the way out of California. We never did any business there, no matter, apparently one day someone from the California law office called on the telephone, cold turkey, without giving their ID, and asked if we did xxx type of work. Someone on the phone here answered yes and that was as far as the call went.

Next, I am being served.

Just like in the movies, a shady looking guy, wearing a black trench coat comes on the property, hands me an envelope and says you're being served... That was it... He turned around and left.

Now shady characters get kicked off the property first, then we ask questions.

Anyways, inside the envelope our name was listed with about another 100 names, this was batch number 70-something of an ongoing lawsuit where someone allegedly hurt was looking for guilty companies - at random. No details at all about whatever may have happened, just that we had (10 or so) days to answer or else the judge would find us guilty as charged.

The trick, of course, is that we had to buy ourselves a California lawyer from whatever district appropriate, this on top of our lawyer hours here. Great costs, and of course the case went no where. I expect all those lawyers in that county over there get to invite the judge for steak dinners every night.

That's why judges allow this stuff to go on. I notice also on the voting ballots how judge's seats come up mostly as vote for one out of a selection of one. I don't know how this works but it is weird. County engineers are more disputed than that!

Meanwhile, I'll try to be as careful as possible before risking doing business with California in the future. This, I think, harms them more than it did me, but I can wait until they get their act together. Don't kid yourself, a sticker doesn't mean much. It's not like a sticky contract. Car dealers glue theirs everywhere.

Constantin

Hmmm...

... I like the context that snopes.com put this message into. Like many e-mail messages, the truth is being played fast and loose.

As for lawyering, a loser pays requirement would end much of the frivolous lawsuits. The payoffs is but one reason that the US has 3x the lawyers per capita than the rest of the world.

jp_2

this is great news!!!

that means then GM is reponsible for the maintenance of my truck its full life cause "their" name is on the vehicle, and General Electric will service my frig forever!

boy you could go on and on and on.....funny how the lawyers have no responsibilty?

Al_19

The homeowners insurance is often the party that goes after the contractor, especially the LAST one to work on the unit. They pay the homeowner, and then assume the ho's rights to sue the contractor.

Also, your liability insurance should provide your legal services. That's the way it has been explained to me. If you're named in a lawsuit and ultimately found not to be at fault, you still needed legal representation that should be provided by your liability insurance.

hr

It's more the jury than the judge

and winning lawyers know how to pick and seat them. Having been through a few jury duty episodes it's amazing what a room full of people that work off the system all their life feel is a fair settlement. And dollar amount.

The lawyers ask point blank if any perspective jury members have a problem with a multi million dollar settlement. That pretty much sets the tone for the trial.

Now the jury starts thinking about award amounts not the actual justice.

You get just as much justice as you can pay for. celebrities prove this over and over.

hot rod

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Mark Hunt

Could be


why lawyers don't use stickers?

Mark H

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gerry gill

off the subject a bit,

but i do find some humor in this as i always get disgusted when some contractor puts his advertisment on an ''appliance'' that he does NOT own..does he think he has the god given right to put his sticker on the unit? i take great pleasure when i see these in asking the homeowner how they feel if someone was to put a sticker on their brand new white washer machine that will only last 10 years..they usually say that would be unacceptable..to which i reply, so it was okay for him to put it on the boiler that should last half a century? why cause its blue? usually they get red, followed by mad..i almost never leave a sticker on anything..

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Ron Schroeder

But then again

You see them on new cars all the time

gerry gill

not mine..

tho they put it there..and i removed it with gasoline..my dad would refuse the car if it had a dealer emblem on it..and back then it wasn't a sticker, it was a high class raised letter job..

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Charles G.

Lawyers

Stickers wouldn't stick--too slimey...(that was WAY too easy)

John R. Hall

Frankly...

I don't mind if someone puts a sticker on my furnace or water heater. My equipment is in the mechanical room off the garage where no one can see it. Big deal. Now as soon as I get my new car home from the dealer I've been buying from for 20 years I remove their license plate frame. If they want to pay me to advertise I expect that to come off the invoice or receive a monthly commission check.

But, back to the subject...

amhwrite_2

Disclaimer needed?

I guess we will have to put disclaimer paragraphs on our water heater stickers now! Let's triple the size of the sticker and make ourselves "perfectly clear," that either we did or did not install the heater. Have seperate stickers for ones that we installed, ones that we serviced, and ones that we would like to service in the future! With big bold red letters! All this, and a lawyer will still try to sue you because the owner was too tall and the sticker wasn't at his reading height! In civil actions, all that has to be proven is that it probably happened that way! I say no more!