above floor sleepers w/ concrete fill?

heatboy

Does that mean that the thousands and thousands of square feet of gyp jobs don't work as well as anything else? Silly. As far as reaction times, not sure that matters all that much. Unless you don't have a roof, that is.

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Hans Andersen

Above floor sleepers w/ concrete fill?

I am building My own house w/ above floor radiant I am leaning to sleepers w/ heat transfer plates, But was wandering if any one has used sleepers w/ a 2-3" gap stapled the tubing into the gap and filed the straight runs w/ concrete leaving the bends for expansion. In areas that need more heat add aluminum flashing 6" wide cut to 3-4' over the top. It would seem that you would get some thermal mass w a very quick installation?

hr

Do you really want, or need

thermal mass? I finding the low mass, dry systems perform better. Much quicker to respond to changing weather conditions.

I think a properly designed and installed quality transfer plate system is the ideal floor radiant, from personal experience. Warmboard would be another top contender. Nothing like a solid aluminum floor to transfer heat via conduction.

From what I read weather patterns have changed so much even the typically cold climates are seeing wide temperature swings, even mid winter. Ideally your system would monitor and respond to that condition.

Even thin mass (1-1/2") pours take hours to respond. Dry systems can rev up and down in 15- 30 minute time frames, depending on the floor coverings.

Think about the weather conditions in your area to help you decide the best "fit"

Just my thoughts

hot rod

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ALH_4

Plates

If you are considering plates, please consider extruded plates and not the sheet metal omega plates. Above floor Thermofin is a bit of work compared to a poured floor. Personally, I would only go above the floor if I did not have access below. If I went above the floor, I would use the "C" channel plates below the sleepers to make the installation go a little easier.

-Andrew

Hans Andersen

Hans Andersen

Thanks for the info. I'm just trying to think of a way that noise will not be an issue. I've read a couple of noise horror stories in these posts. I'm sure there was somthing wrong in these cases because everyone says heat plates are the way to go.

One other ? is it benificial to put a radiant barrier down between the sleepers? From all my calcs I should be fine ( r-30 below 9.5 mm engeneered flooring above.) But just wondering

Thanks again Hans

Unknown

Skip the radiant barrier. Skip the concrete and do NOT install concrete in contact with aluminum.

Use PEX-AL-PEX to prevent noise issues.

Light plates on top of the infill work pretty good for a high labor, cheap material cost system. The thermofin plates are of course better, for a more medium material cost, high labor system. I generally use the thermofin where needed and lightweights elsewhere to match water temperatures.

I disagree with andrew on going below the floor though. I see no benefit in fighting an additional layer of 3/4" plywood that you don't have to. You can, thermofin in the joist will perform similarly to light plates in a sandwich on top, but it will cost more. Labor may or may not be easier depending on your carpentry ability and the status of your joist bays. Thermofin on top of the floor would perform better than either other choice there though.

Or you can go with Warmboard or Raupanel for easier labor and truly superior performance, and pay much bigger bucks for material.


Lots of choices!

ALH_4

Above or Below

Above the floor installations will outperform below the floor by a small margin. Unless you put the plates above the sleepers, there is the same amount of plywood on top of the plates.

In my mind it's a case of having to buy two layers of plywood instead of one. How long will it take to recoup the investment in plywood based on the "x" degrees the fluid temperature can be dropped? The above the floor systems require a LOT more labor in every instance I have seen. If there is no access below the floor, then above the floor is the only option.

This is all just my take on it. There is no right or wrong answer. Raupanel and Warmboard are excellent products. I particularly like the Raupanel idea for solving some inherent problems with heavy plates above the floor, and providing more installation flexibility. There are still trade-offs. A U-Fin floor with the plates below the sleepers gives a lot of nailing surface for hardwood.

Rob is right about using pex-al-pex.

-Andrew

Unknown

I would never do a sandwich the plates below the infill unless you guys have a really strong reason to do so with your plates andrew. You're right, you're fighting the same amount of wood if you do.. very silly to do so, I would think!

With plates on top of the infill, those water temps can drop quite a bit, yes? Why would you not do that?

These sandwich method installs are not contractor installs. They are a lot more labor, and as such they are appropriate when labor is cheap and money is tight.

ALH_4

Nailing Surface

The only reason to put the plates under the sleepers is to provide as much nailing surface as possible. Plus it provides a very nice flat surface for the hardwood or other floor covering. Relieving the sleepers to accomodate the plate thickness is possible, and I did a little of that with their cnc router. The fluid temps would drop some, but they are already in the low 90's at design in a well insulated house with the sleepers on top of the plates. btw, I've not been at RE for almost 6 months.

-Andrew

jp_2

yes,

Ive done that, I think it works pretty good, especially if you thinset cement board on top and tile. can't get thermofin around here anyway.

I question the bond between thermofin/warmboard and thinset/CBU?

hr

Plates under the sleepers

do tend to spread the heat a bit more evenly than plate and tube touching the final floor covering, as in a U-fin installation.

Less noticable striping. The complete opposite of high temperature direct tube staple up, those can really show and feel noticeable temperature gradiants between the tubes. Quite obvious in infared pictures, also.

As Andrew mentioned, run the numbers to see how little the supply temperature changes.

Thin pours, specfically gypsum based products still have a place. If sound deadning, fire-proffing, and leveling is required, or desired, then I'd go with a thin pour.

Although I feel a floating engineered flooring is a MUCH better match for this type of install. Sleepers for hardwood nailing is a lot of work and can result in more flooring waste if you want to nail as tightly as some manufactures require.

Movement and gapping is minimized with the engineered floorimng also. Takes a lot more abuse in terms of humidity changes than solid strip wood, from my experience.

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