Modifying monoflo T system

Perry_2

In general, there are no houses really close together in this town.

The blueprints for the house (yes I have several sets of the original blue prints from 1953) shows 8' 3" to the lot line on that side of the house. I believe it. Then that neighbor has a couple feet of grass, a driveway, and flower area against the house. My guess is that my neighbors house on that side is about 20 ft away.

Perry

Perry_2

Modifying Monoflo T system

Looking at my existing boiler layout; and my basement.

I have a large square 1 1/4" single pipe monoflow T system with 11 cast iron baseboard radiators.

Is there any reason why I could not install the new boiler on the other side of the basement, direct vent outside, and cut into the existing loop at a new point - closing the loop where the existing boiler is.

Seems to me that things would work just the same in the Monoflo loop.

I mention this in part because of the 6' rule from windows. This house has lots of windows. There are exactly 2 spots that meet the 6 Ft criteria from windows.

It would also allow most of the construction of the new system without interferening with the old one.

Perry

frank_25

mono sys

I believe the system won't suffer as long as you use the same size new connection, and don't cut between supply and return Tee's. As far as additional connections, are you anticipating adding only rads, or a new loop? Caution here, the extg loop may not be adaquate if you add rads. and only rads here. Do not run bb of any kind. If you want to zone the new, then you must zone the extg also.

Brad White_111

It's only pipe...

In principle I agree with Frankie that you can cut in practically anywhere given that the main loop is all the same size, just do not divide any tees serving any one radiator.

On my own home I had a similar system but completely re-piped it three years ago, reverse return in copper. (Recent Real Estate escalation due solely to spot metal prices!)

This gave me the opportunity if I wanted to zone any radiators in any group I wanted. In the end I used TRV's and have it all one zone, not a huge house and it works fine. Point is, you can do anything you want for the cost of the piping.

Now, if you really want to divide your flow (assuming you are keeping the radiators all on one zone particularly, you can split your monoflow loop into two circuits.

(This is NOT a tee dividing flow, for the flow direction must remain as you have it now. You are not about to reverse the tees, right?)


Rather, you would run a main feed and return out to the center, from where ever your boiler is finally located and split in two directions. Connect to the mains at, say, opposite sides. This will approximately halve your flow and your pressure drop will go down by a factor of four. In so doing it will allow you to add some radiators if you desire.

Easier to picture than to describe if this makes sense.

Perry_2

Something interesting...

Thanks Frank and Brad:

I did not think that it would make any difference. No plans to split the system. I want to leave as much piping intack as I can.

I have been looking at the layout of the basement: If I adopt a condensing boiler I must also have a place to drain it. Again - that is on the other side of the basement at essentially the location of the one exit locations that meets the 6 Ft rule from any window. One other concern though is snow line.... This exit location is only a foot or so off the ground... I don't think that would normally be a problem; but it might in a heavy snowstorm (or a series of snowstorms). I'll have to talk to my heating guy about possible answers. I note the Vitoden 200 does have limited venting options specified in the manual.

What is interesting is that one of the radiators is already split at the existing boiler. It's supply comes right off the boiler (first off); and the return is the last return at the end of the loop - just prior to the boiler. No wonder my kitchen is heated so well... I am sure it gets more than it's fair share of flow.

What is also interesting, is that apparently these are a bit different monoflo T than described elsewhere on thi site (description of heating systems). The T'ss are installed to divert at the inlet with the arrow properly pointing in the overall system flow. This is obvously correct as each one has a little brass tag (Bell & Gossett) that says Supply and a little arrow pointing out the branch connection side of the T. The description of how these worked seemed to indicate that Monoflo T's were normally installed on the return; and that they needed to be turned arround to work properly if installed at the inlet. I also note that I have verified the flow direction by temperature measurements.

Perry

Steamhead (in transit)

Snow accumulation

What is the highest snow accumulation experienced in your area? Depending on what Code is used in your area and the AHJ's interpretation, 12 inches might not be enough height. And if that area could be classified as a walkway, you'd need a height of 7 feet according to some Codes and many manufacturers' instructions.

Keep in mind that it can be much more difficult to get a tech to your house if the roads are snowed under. So if the intake and exhaust pipes are too low and get blocked with snow, and any water gets into the boiler's firing zone and controls, you might be without heat for a while.

Just some things to think about before you start repiping your system......

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Perry_2

Snow depth and installation plan: - but City regs say NO

Actaully; assuming that the Vitoden rep can answer a control question (I'm waiting on a return phone call) - and it doesn't cost several thousand more to install (my favorite heating contractor made it over last night and will price it out)... but I am aware that at some price point it would not make sense.

I had already decided that I would run the vent pipe up into a 1st floor closet and out the sidewall so that I can be several feet off the ground (sacrifice some closet room). This is really the only place in the house that I can do this at. It is also the only place that meets the "so many feet from windows" rule. It also, in the basement, where the basement floor drain is (for draining the condensate).

The ointment has a fly though.... Apparently the city recently passed an ordanace that prevents me running anything out the front or side of the house - so the neighbors don't see it.... It would be "unsightly" I'm also told that variances are rare.

Hmmm... This side of the house already has the gas meter, Cloths dryer vent, Kithen vent, Range Hood vent, Electicity in, phone in, cable TV in, and I may have missed a few. This side of the house is where everything else goes in and out for the house. So I don't see what the big deal is. My heating Contractor indicated that he will go to bat for me - and that it is possible to get a variance.

I wonder if the city wants the local press to do a story on how they won't allow a homeowner to install a high efficiency boiler; and also allow future installation of a central air system that improves the tax value of the house (plans are to tear out the chimney in the future and use the chimney chase to run ducting). All because they are worried about how the vent would be "unsightly" for the neighbors... I will note that my neighbor has no problem with me installing this.

It never gets dull... But I am sure you all know that.

Perry

Brad White_111

What part of

Stalingrad to you live in, Perry? Jeesh. Your town fathers....make that mothers have way too much time on their hands....

Perry_2

It's the kids... Everything \"now\" with no consideration

The town fathers and mothers long ago passed on: It the grandkids running things now.

We got to have everything NOW; who cares about how it affects everthing else. What they want - they get or the cry and through tantrums until they get it... I only moved here just under 6 years ago. I thought it was nice that we had a nice brandnew firestation (very large - well laid out).

What I didn't know was that it was just one of many "recent" city inititives to improve the city.

My "utiltiy bill" is no longer about utilities; I'm paying lots of extra surcharges on it for the new firestation and for other things. Golly, in most areas those things are part of the tax bill.... Op's forgot - we have some of the highest property taxes in the area - for other things recently built in the city.

Gota fix er up and make it shine.... That's how we'll attract business.... (except it seems business has been closing or is moving elsewhere - where the taxes are lower).

Gota have the houses looking good too... Can't allow people to change their appearance and degrade how it looks... It just fits in with the rest.

I'm sure you know the drill...

Methinks that I've gota vote in a couple of weeks to. It seems that I'm not the only one who is beginning to wonder. The major city "project / fixer uppers" list keeps getting longer as now we gota make everthing match the all the new buildings and new main steet.

Perry

Steamhead (in transit)

Maybe more to it

If the houses are close together, the space between them may be considered as walkways. Most Codes and manufacturer's specs require a minimum 7 foot clearance above such areas for direct-vent boiler intakes/exhausts, and there may be a minimum spacing between houses below which these are entirely prohibited. The idea is to keep flue gases away from people, since if the boiler is not working properly they may contain carbon monoxide. That's also why the minimum spacing between boiler intake/exhaust and any operating window or door is usually 4 feet.

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