Is there anything wrong with using a Bell & Gossett Seris 100

Unknown

The series 100 pumps are CRAPOLA, the bearings assy are made to crap out just after the warrnty expired, I change them out to oilless pumps... I have several homes with orginal assy are over 40 years old while the new pumps on addtion been replaced 4 times til the oil less pumps came out...

Perry_2

Is there anything wrong with reusing a Bell & Gossett Series 100

A great deal of talk has occured in another thread about which is the better pumps: Taco or Brundfos.

In my case I have a Bell & Gossett Series 100 installed on a 1 pipe monoflo T system built in the 50's.

The original pump lasted about 40 years.

The like for like replacment of the motor/seal/impeller is doing just fine with me oiling it each year (original pump casing installed).

Since we know this pump works on the system - and seems to have life approaching 40 years with just a tidbit of annual maintenance. Why would I need to switch pumps?

Are the Tyco or Grundfos going to last longer? Are they going to be available longer?

Is there anything wrong with just reusing what I have? I do remember when I moved in and had the local heating guy check things out (and show me how to oil the seal and motor bearings) that he indicated that if there was ever a problem that he could get a replacement matching pump in less than a day.

Is there anything wrong with a person building a new system with a Bell & Gossett pump?

Perry

Dave_12

My opinion

There is nothing wrong with the B&G series 100 pump.

In my judgment, though, Grundfos or even Taco would be a better selection today. Why?? Because B&G has a reputation for high parts pricing when the pumps need repair. You can buy an entirely new Grundfos UPS15-58 pump for less than 1/2 the price of a replacement bearing assembly for the B&G series 100 pump. Also, the Grundfos UPS15-58 is a more efficient pump and will save on operating costs every second it is running.

There are a lot of B&G pumps out there doing a great job, but my advice is to do some research on efficiency, initial pump price, and replacement parts prices. Then make the right choice.

gerry gill

i have no problem with the series 100,

they perform well and have lasted a long time..the only problems i've ever seen have resulted from people over oiling the motor, which causes the motor mounts to sag, which in turn breaks the coupler..then of course the coupler gets changed, but not the real culprit, the motor mounts, which then causes stress on the bearing which then causes it to leak...and i've changed out a few wet rotor circ that didn't seem to last to long too..like anything, i suspect all makers have a bad one slip thru now and again..i have no problem saying to use a B&G pump..i like them, altho i've been using the grunfos alot lately due to the 3 speed option..

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Plumb Bob

The Series 100 moves too much water for many applications. It has been used excessively as a "one size fits all" solution. More flow than necessary for deltaT ~ 20 is basically wasted; it increases heat output only by a tiny amount, and it causes noise and wastes power.

The series 100 is less efficient (draws more current) than modern pumps, and it does need careful oiling (not too much). I agree that it lasts forever.

Weezbo

this might interest you..

a system i pulled apart about ten years ago had Pump Happy installer beacoup d B&G pumps i re piped and installed one Grunfoss...sub sequentially i added another boiler, different strategy new piping removed flow restrictive emitters, downsized that pump to a 15 series three speed.

a mono flow system may have large pipe that is threaded and finding some of the fittings might be a bit difficult however you can still get different flanges for the pump of your choice....you don't need to trash B&G however you may be able to get various other pumps that will meet your need. like Boilers that were occasionally over sized the B&G also found itself often employed in situations that did not require that particular circulator.

oh O! Jed brings up a very good point. depends on the Viessmann and the size of your system is where i have to retreat too, now :)oh, and B&G makes some much smaller recircs these days i know the W9 and W8 are way down the flow rate pump curve graph.

i just perused the post . ok with just some of the salient issues in mind...condensing boilers like low return temps...however the emitters need X BTU's to provide heat .speeding up the flow rates is not as effective as increasing the water temp. modulating the emitters with TRV's i would consider a must have. the Viessmann would want to find its own equilibrium,system wide. the recirc if oversized would not compensate you for the retainment of it in the system.

Jed_2

Perry

It has way too much flow for the system you described in you're other post, plus, Mike T.'s preliminary, crude flow analysis, while accurate for the parameters you supplied for you're system, yielded some major bumps in the road to Vitoden optimal performance. If I read your other post correctly, you only need 4GPM max, at design conditions. don't over-pump.

I'm surprised the "E" in you so readily reconciles a 40 year old circulator with a 21st century boiler.

Jed

Perry_2

I'm not your normal \"E\"

"I'm surprised the "E" in you so readily reconciles a 40 year old circulator with a 21st century boiler. Jed"

While I am an "E" what is more important is that I am a plant "E" and have spent much of my life operating, maintaining, steam plants, power plant systems, and other rotating equipment - that typically ran 24/7 for 10 - 11 months a year. I was a crackerjack maintenance person before I got that "E" degree (and did all the precission maintance on control valves and fitting bearings and sleeves when having it right to a 1/1000th of an inch mattered). Things worked right when I was done with them - that could not be said for most people. There is a certain skill and patience level needed for that kind of work.

Trust me - a old piece of equipment that works well is usually far better than much of the new gunk that gets pushed our way under the slogan of faster- better- cheaper. I have seen to many "upgrades" to newer equipment that then did not work to even count.

I have seen the upgraded model of the same item fail as well. The plant I work at recently had an extreemly expensive lesson in that with a 12" globe valve (welded in - safety related): The new ones weighed about 75 Lb less than the original and no one questioned what was changed. Same part number, same catalog diagram. The old ones lasted over 30 years - and were only changed to meet regulatory concerns (there was nothing really wrong with them). The new ones lasted something like less than 10 hours.... before the valve stems broke (after the plant was back on line as well).

Just because an "E" and a marketing group says it will work - does not mean it will...

So before I ran off to play with the latest pump for my secondary side - I thought I'd do a reality check.

Hope you all don't mind that.

Perry

Weezbo

here is something that you might find of further interest

www.engineeringtoolbox.com.

there are some very sharp ideas there that you probably can wield like a wrench

Perry_2

engineering toolbox

Thanks, I've bookmarked the site.

Just remember - as many of you know: There can be a big differrence between what works in theory - or in the lab, or for only a short time; and what works in the field for years on end.

I'm as keen as many on new ideas and new stuff; but also cautious untill it proves itself.



Perry

hr

Don't confuse the application with the product

That B&G pump sure has proven it's longevity and design intent. It is a very nice flat curve pump, should the design require that.

Properly cared for they will run 30 years or more.

Over oiling or misapplying should not count against the pumps design:)

That being said, small wet rotor circs offer a lot of bang for the bucks. Multi speed, low power consumption, maintenance free, easy to mount, and a very wide selection of sizes. And colors

hot rod

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Ken_40

Hot Rod's right.

Missing the fact that the performance curves of the S-100 are nothing like the circ-pumps being compared, is troubling.

The extremely flat curve of the S-100 makes it ideal for one of my favorite designs; i.e., multiple zones using a single circ. with zone valves.

Unlike typical wet-rotor curves, which are prone to zone valve "slam" when only one ZV is calling (and the typical 14' of head they produce, creates "system whine and noise") - the S-100 only has 8' of head.

We even saw medium sized wet-rotors exceed the spring "power" for closure on zones not even calling - allowing heat, where none was wanted. Poor designs required the GPM's of the wet-rotor to be high enough to work when full demand of all ZV's being open makes the selection "overkill," when only one ZV calls.

Mis-understanding the nature of pump-curves is probably the single largest reason for air contamination in replacement circulators, when replacing a return pipe mounted S-100, which worked for decades without air problems, with a wet rotor like the 007, which induces air entry by virtue of vacuums that are created by high head circs.

I do not have enough fingers or toes to count the number of times I have seen a 40 year old S-100 sitting in the dark, on the floor, and a 4-year old 007 on the boiler return, and the boiler and near boiler piping corroded to death, because of air and rust contamination - the direct result of the 007 causing a high-point system vacuum, when the S-100 never had that potential.

Give the dead men credit. True, they used the S-100 because the wet-rotor hadn't been invented yet, but the "pumping away" necessity was not a factor with a circ. pump with only 8' of head. As Dan redily admits, "pumping away" was NOT a fundamental issue in typical two story, S-100 apps.