Copper Piping

Brad White_184

If the copper is still visible/uninsulated, the labels should be apparent. ANSI standards also dictate a color code, red for type M (the thinnest pressure-grade tubing), Type L (middle-weight, the least you want) and green for Type K, the thickest tubing weight commonly available. If you have K I would be surprised.

The water zones should be copper, however.

tbertz

Copper Piping

We hired a contractor to renovate and build on to our home. He was highly recommended and does a lot of work in our area. However, after he completed the work, I discoverd that all the new piping (steam pipes)into the new rooms are copper. These are the feeder pipes off of the main cast iron pipes.

Is this going to be a problem down the road/or not? If so, approximately how much time do I have before I will have to open up the walls and repipe.

Thank you for your help!

laurence salvatore_2

addition

I find it incomprehensable that a new addtion built to code would not be a seperate heating zone. This could have been easily accomplished with you existing equipment most likley. Perhaps you still can what kind or radiation was installed? As to your question, 5-20 year on gov't type "L" copper, 2-12 years with type "M" depending on conditions, would be my guess based on anecdotal eperience.

Brad White_184

Cu Later

Some copper repairs will outlast the system, some are where the problems show themselves first.... This is an ongoing discussion here.

The best and proper way to pipe a steam boiler is with carbon steel pipe, Schedule 40 for steam and Schedule 80 (heavier weight walls) for condensate, in my experience. Many use Schedule 40 throughout without incident and they last for years.

Copper, if it has a place in this, would be below the waterline, where it sees condensate and somewhat limited temperature swings. Type L at a minimum though. Forget Type M. I might even go to Type K if below grade, but ugh...

That said, some copper systems last for years. If they fail, it tends to be at joints. If the piping is exposed, replacement will be of course simpler.

My advice? What is done is done. It may outlast the house. If not, replace it with steel at that time.

tbertz

I appreciate your response. The house is a 1920's eng col., with small rooms. We did add new water zones, one in the master and one in the sun room, which is the bulk of the addition. The other rooms were small bedrooms and a small main bath. The pipes had to be moved, so he replaced the pipes with copper. I do not know if he used copper within the walls, and if there are any joints there. I am going to discuss it with him.

Thanks, again!

tbertz

I appreciate your fast response. I do not know what copper grade they used. Overall we are very happy with the work. The heat works very well. I was concerned because he did add two water zones for the master and sun room. I am going to discuss the copper piping with him soon. I just wanted to understand the situation.

Thank you!

[Deleted User]

Schedule 40 for steam

and Schedule 80 for condensate

why the diff? we use 80 for high pressure anything, and condensate is far from high pressure. am i missing something? wall thickness/corrosion?

Brad White_184

Corrosion

You got it, Mike! More wall thickness means more life when you accept that condensate piping can be somewhat sacrificial.

Not a pressure issue as you note. There is something satisfying about socket-welded Sch. 80 pipe though...

The use of Sch. 80 is a specification standard in our office for condensate and especially where it is concealed or buried, even if in insulated conduit. The added life is short money for what wants to be a 100 year system.

[Deleted User]

Good Boys Read about the Korean Airline company KLM

I used this for my master test to remember copper weight. Green = Good = THICK (type K)
Boys = Blue = medium thick (type L)
Read = Red = DANGER, thin pipe. (type M)

Yellow = HELLO, who put the DWV non pressure rated piping into this heating system???

Memograms...

ME

Brad White_184

Memograms?

I was going to say "drugs"!



What do you use to remember the memograms?

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

does the copper

flake off the steam pipes and float on the surface of the water line, causing damage to the boiler, or is that an old wives tale? Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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tbertz

I looked at the piping in the basement. I did not see any labels. As for color (if I understand), the pipe looks like your normal red copper piping. Also, if the pipe is low pressure grade (RED), then would you change your original response? In other words, does this mean I should get this repiped?
Thank you.

[Deleted User]

but aside from a burial

would you still do the same?

[Deleted User]

Ginko Biloba....

Drugs!

ME

tbertz

Type M

I now know what you are referring too when you say color. It is RED "M". I have to talk to him (the contractor) to find out if the copper is also in the walls. I did notice that it is insulated going into the walls.

Brad White_184

Yes

The burial was an "especially" condition.

I believe in using materials judiciously and Sch. 80 makes sense in my specification work which is often public schools and other public works. Maintenance is not always a priority so have to build in some factor of longevity.

The labor far outweighs the materials even these days and it is intended to only be installed once.

That said, sometimes Sch. 80 is not readily available so one has to punt.

Anyway, that is what I do and why I do it

[Deleted User]

oh my!

you just made it very clear with this;
often public schools and other public works. Maintenance is not always a priority

we just ended up with 4 schools and 2 commercial boiler installs, and some of the 'maintenance' that we've seen is laughable at best. and we're very fortunate to have 3 very good welders, with one of those 3 who's work looks machine made, especially stainless

thanks for the info

Weezbo

when you can put your fingernail of your little finger

through a Type M copper supply pipe ,could any of you see a problem with ever using copper in a steam system ?

Brad White_184

Public Work

You got it, Mike- Maintenance. Here in MA, the state level school construction funding does not cover maintenance (operational expenses paid by local taxpayers) but capital construction projects are and emergency repairs might be.

There is thus an incentive to cut back on maintenance work... sort of a chronic vandalism by neglect IMHO... You may have a similar situation.

Those welders and that one in particular who can TIG stainless to machined perfection? Shake his hand for me. I really admire that skill set. Whatever you do, keep him.

jackchips_2

That used

to be the case, Brad, quite the opposite now.

If a school system does not provide evidence of good maintenance they will lose points in the new funding system. Common sense in our State? Who would have believed it.

As for the copper pipe in this thread, it almost seeems like there is some forced hot water added for the new work.

Jack

gerry gill

it can,

copper and steel or iron in the presence of an electrolyte exposed to oxygen form a battery.

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Brad White_184

That is good news, Jack!

Thanks for the "upper"... We have made our thoughts known to the SBA for some time and hey, they listened!

On the copper issue, yes, I stand by the use of copper for the HW portions.

Happy New Year, Jack-

Brad

Tim_57

Copper on steam in NY = ILLEGAL

New York State Department of Labor Boiler Saftey Units inspectors will tag and lock out all steam boilers in which they inspect and find copper piping installed. This is only for homes with over 6 familys or comm buildings however most smaller towns follow their code.. Copper is not for steam I dont care what type copper your using I have seen it work for 1 hour and I have seen it work for 15 years. I also saw one that only lasted 2 weeks and killed a familys dog..

[Deleted User]

chronic vandalism by neglect

perfect wording
and just when i think i've seen the worst, something comes up and i just hang my head and chuckle, wondering if i'm going to inherit a long-running nightmare of falling dominos

yeah, the tig machine. and he's just as good with stick.
i'll shake his hand for you, after i'm through shaking my head, and thinking that as many times as i've seen it, i still wonder if he's a cyborg. and, the guy is about as un-assuming and humble as a monk

tbertz

Well, if the village I live in follows the same code then the piping is not up to code. Not sure that is the case though. I would be supprised if this guy did not follow code, and the village is supposed to inspect.
I know I will eventually have to replace all the copper. But do think I can wait it out, or is this IYO a dangerous situation that must be fixed right away?

Brad White_184

Ginko Viagra.....

Helps me remember what the f I am doing....

Unknown

I have not

seen copper flake off in steam systems . And since I've heard of this phenomenon 10 years ago , I check on every steamer replacement with copper piping .

I've been using copper on return piping for over 20 years ( 10 for my present company ) . I have yet to replace a steamer I've installed , probably 300 to 400 in the last 10 years .

This issue with using copper has always been the joints . I think softer solder was used back in the day , which could not hold up to the stress of going from room temp to steam temp , over and over . Newer , stronger solders make this a moot point .

[Deleted User]

Newer, stronger solders

are you refering to silfos type or standard 95/5 plumbing?