Radiant Install Pics

Rob Blair

Just remove the motors and rotate 180.

Rob

Norm Harvey

This is a whole house radiant installation I did for (and with) Sturdy Oil in Cohasset, MA this summer. I just went back to photograph the job today for my portfolio.

There are two temperatures in the house. One for the wood floors, and another for the tiled bathrooms. Every loop is controlled with a telestat with a total of 9 thermostats, and a floor sensor for every thermostat.

The system is variable speed injection controlled by a Wirsbo Promix 311 and a 201 with outdoor reset.

This is my first radiant job of this scope. Before this my experience had only been additions either single or multi room.

The "radianthightemp" picture looks as if the pipes are not level, but I assure you my pipe leveling skills are spot on, unlike my photography skills.

Things I would do differently...

I would snake all of my 110v through the mechanical wall to run out of sight behind it. I have this electrical pet peeve.

I would use better flow metering and balancing devices.

Aside from those two things I am very happy with the overall installation and the performance is simply amazing! The responsiveness, comfort, and operation of the system is unlike anything I have ever seen.

Money became an issue for the customer over the course of the remodel, so the Vitodens I spec'd was abandoned in favor of using the existing cast iron Burnham. I have boiler return temperature protection enabled on the control so that the return water will never drop below 140.

Currently there is a stand alone gas DHW heater, but I have provisions in the primary loop to add an indirect later, when the aforementioned funding issues are resolved.

I am also very happy with the Uponor/Wirsbo controls (They're made by tekmar) My only complaint is that there is zero room for wiring inside the zone control modules which does nothing to help my electrical pet peeve problem. I hate sloppy electricals.


I'm very interested in your opinions as I want to know what I could have done better.

Unknown

Circs

Hang the circulators correctly for starters.

mikea23

hang circ correctly and manifolds should never be installed upside down. Flow meters why not?

Norm Harvey

So F&M clamps are not preffered? What is your preferred method?

Whats the reasoning for not installing manifolds inverted?

Im looking for something constructive here.

singh

Hi Norm

First off, your installation is better than most. Good Job.

I would also say , don't hang the circ upside down, per manufacturer instructions. Also, the electrical box for the circs should be on the side or above. Water over wire is the reason.
It is the same reason for the manifold actuators, water over wires, but they will work upside down, but not reccommended.

Take care of those few tweaks, and your good to go.



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singh

P.S.

I also install all those actuator wires into a junction box, then have a single thermostat wire going into the ZCM. Helps a little , instead of trying to cram all of them into those very small terminals : )

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Norm Harvey

Thanks Singh

In this type of application would you have run the radiant tubing from the ceiling down behind the wall, then back up the front side to fascilitate the actuator on top of the manifolds? My thought process was trying to keep the tubing as neat as possible. What are your thoughts on having the mechanical wall be affixed to the floor joists and having the entire wall overhead? Would neaten tubing but the actuators would be on their side. Any thoughts?

And for those injection circulators thats an easy fix I can just spin the motors so that the electrical boxes are on the up side then shorten the wiring a bit. Thanks.

Mark Eatherton

Nice work Norm....

As the others said, it might do you good to sit down and read the installation instructions on the circs. If a rep walked in on your job, your circ pump warranties would be out the door.

On another note, and its hard to tell from my PC, but with the particular telestat operators you have there, if they are not properly initiated, they sit there, partially open, delivering unwanted heat to areas that probably don't want/need it. I know we get that call all the time. Solution is pretty simple. Turn the thermostat for that zone WAY up for 5 minutes, then turn it down.

Nice work. Good use of pex, however, I was told that we should not use ProPex expansion tools on tubing with EVOH barrier. Not that I've ever actually seen it be a problem, but ya just never know... I think their enginears are worried about compromising the Evoh barrier or something...

Is there a reason you're not using a modcon boiler?

ME

scrook_2

Norm...........very nice work. You took the time to make it look good and it shows. As far as mounting the circs, some manufacturers don't want you to mount them in the horizontal position unless you have at least a certain psi in the system. I find myself that when i mount a circ in this position, I always flip the motor around so I have the electrical connection on the top of the motor. I guess you can call it one of my pet peeves. eturn.t

Dan Foley

ProPex

Mark,

I have never heard of the Propex with barrier pipe issue. Why would Wirsbo include propex fittings in their heating catalog? I hope it is not an issue because we have hundreds (thousands?) of Propex connections on barrier tubing. -DF

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Norm Harvey

Okay Mark, I've looked through the installation instructions for the big three circulator manufacturers and I see nothing where the current installation is voiding any sort of warranty, or anything that says they should not be installed that way.

I do understand the "water over electricals" comment, and I agree with that oversight on my part. That can be corrected by spinning the motor housing to have the electricals on top.

Do you see any problem with the way the circulators are secured to the board with F&M clamps?

I'm not arguing here, just trying to make my next install better. untill this job 100% of my circulators have been mounted verticly on an iron manifold like this:..

Ron Gillen

Installation instructions

Not sure about warranty issues but proper wet rotor circulator instructions can be found here. Applies to all manufacturers. http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/D4E945C92AA7B25B88256C2C004C441C/$File/L-UP-TL-053.pdf By the way, nice work

Weezbo

Howdy Norm.

here are a few considerations for you in the future, maybe they will come in handy for you.

when you are planning your installs look to make remote headers with the shortest tail pieces (+ a little material for remodeling purposes in the future)..just in case. here is a reason why, the supply headers emit heat .

Consider running slightly larger tubing To and from the header with your zone valves in one place. the idea being that should make wiring and manifold layout easy to deal with...

while many agree with the manifolds and hardware and separate balancing valves on each loop length ,i find that more costly in time and materials A? the thought being that you can often offer a very tidy installation that offers other features to improve the over all system with the same money spent solely on materials..

if you are micro zoning then , insulation and thermal breaks need to be considered to isolate the thermal mass of the floors , rooms and halls... here is where basements or floors one over the other with different temp heat emitters can cause bake the brain... even with the insulation you may have to visually inspect the work prior to sheet rock....

there are many little details in radiant or hydronic heating looking at your first job ...here are some of the what i see that i like ,

a system wide injection system minimizing system temps with out door in put, consideration of the indirect, zoning, slab sensors, the shower *~/:)

i am inclined to agree with your thoughts on balancing valves especially when you have chosen premade headers. with what you have installed that should be a relatively painless up grade.

you could make some improvements easily in your future installs...reducing the hose by about 60 ' at those manifolds would be in your best interest, changing the injection circ with out question is the right thing to do, placing the headers closer to where they come out of the floor joist or floor would tighten up the over all picture, consider check valves and a few temp dial face gages just to make quick assessment of what is really going on easier for trouble shooting the system....how are we doing so far?

i have to say , that there are plenty of things that can only be gathered when it is your actual experience with the Work. each person is an individual and there are some things that improve as one goes along in the ability to visualize the final product..that is harder to relate in words..if someone is working with me on 4 installs say, it is much easier for me to "allow them their head" (within certain minimal guidelines) use very specific words of praise and then drag them back by the first installation the second and the third to their last installation and Voila! a couple choice words as realization dawns on them...Zen radiant mind *~/:)

singh

Norm

The upside down circ becomes a dirt trap.

I don't see a problem with the F+M plates and split rings. Possible vibration transmittance.

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Paul Rohrs_7

Wiring Ideas

Norm, I have the same issues with sloppy electrical. I really don't like staring at a bank of transformers either. NEMA 1 enclosures come in a lot of different sizes like 4x4, 6x6, 8x8, 12x12, 12x24. You can put all of your transformers in it with a convenient disconnect switch and mount smaller controls right on the panel. I prefer the small grey rocker switches so that it doesn't look like every other light switch in the house. (Picture 100 6134).

You might also consider using some low-voltage and line-voltage wiring gutter. A little bit of time and materials really dresses it up and doesn't leave a lot of room for an electrician to muck it up. I have even built a small laminated enclosure for my Tekmar TN4 so that I wouldn't have any exposed wires. Disconnect, low-voltage, and line voltage were behind the cover that had the TN4 zone-manager and primary control on it. (picture 4195)

Paul

Paul Rohrs_7

Wiring Ideas

Norm, I have the same issues with sloppy wiring. I really don't like staring at a bank of transformers however necessary they might be.

I think there are several options available and with a little bit of time and materials, you can dress up the electrical portion of the install before the electrician arrives on site.

Grey NEMA 1 enclosures are available in a lot of different sizes, 4x4,6x6,8x8,12x12,12x24, etc. You can pre-mount this on a piece of plywood or melamine, wire in a disconnect, and even mount some of your smaller controls right on the NEMA 1 enclosure, or right beside it. (picture 100 6134). EDIT: I also prefer grey rocker switches for my disconnects so that it doesn't look like every light switch in the house.

Also, low-voltage and line voltage wiring gutter are available to conceal the electrical raceways we need. I have even built a small laminated enclosure that houses my electrical disconnect and junction boxes but then mounted my Tekmar TN4 on the surface with a hinged lid. It kept everything out of site that I didn't want seen.

heatboy_2

Tekmar controls are made for ...........

...... contractors from the Lollypop Guild, IMO. This is what I do, Norm (pictured below) because, like you, I hate seeing wire. While drilling the panel and running wires behind it is nice, it takes way too much time.

Unknown

Absolutely beautiful,

install pics guys,,unfortunately in my neck of the woods, it would be next to impossible to find a customer to pay for that level of perfection.

[Deleted User]

Rest easy Dan...

They also list AquaPex in their heating catalog as well, but that doesn't make it right...

I believe that when they first introduced the ProPex expansion rings that my supplier advised againts its use due to questions regarding the long term reliability of the Evoh barrier. They now offer the tube with double Evoh barrier (HePex PLUS) so it is evidently no longer a problem.

They also have a listing with the IPC/IMC folks which can be seen at http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/UBC/ESR-1529.pdf

With all of that said, I have seen three jobs in the last year where the evoh barrier is delaminating from the tubing in concrete applications, all three snowmelt systems. Coming off like a snake offing his skin.

I am not concerned with the loss of barrier because both of these systems have an ongoing fluid maintenance program in place,and glycol with inhibitors induced.

However, I have gone back on several residential closed loop systems where the evoh barrier was compromised (scratches) and there is substantial signs of internal black oxidation, which I presume to be some sort of ferric oxide, attached to the inner wall. None of these systems had anything more than straight water induced into them.

I'm thinking that in the grand scheme of things that these scratches don't really pose any kind of threat to the vessel integrity of the tube, but do reinforce the need for proper fluid care and treatment on a long term basis.

Sorry if I cost you some sleep last night...

ME

[Deleted User]

Trust me Norm,,,

If you lost that G-fos circulator that is hanging upside down for any reason, and called the factory rep in to look at the job, you would have no warranty.

It is implied in the warranty that only products that are properly installed will be covered. None of these pumps are properly installed. Not trying to bust your chops. Everyone makes mistakes. Just trying to keep you from fighting the same battles I've fought and lost.

I don't think anyone is having an issue with the pipe mounting methods (F&C plates) as much as they are the fact that you have rotors hanging down, imparting stress to thrust bearings that weren't designed for that kind of stress, and acting as dirt traps for any minute particles (solder, dirt, oxides) floating around the system looking for a place to settle out. The upside down junction boxes do and will trap water, exposing electrical components to conditions for which they weren't designed for as well, possibly causing it to short out and arc and cause an electrical fire. Been there, seen that, and it was NOT a pretty sight.

Other than the circulator orientation issue and the upside down manifold issue, I see nothing exceptionally wrong.

As for the manifold issue, if these manufacturers would figure out a way to seal the operating shaft stem on the plungers of these manifolds, we wouldn't have to worry about mounting them upside down... Due to their ineptness in that area, we have to cover their butt by mounting them in an orientation that negates the chances of water getting into the motor/switch gear of the telestats. They don't specifically disallow mounting them with the manifold vertically, but if you did, you would still be exposing them to a potential drip situation. And this is not picking on any particular manifold manufacturer. They ALL have the same problems and they ALL have the same specefication regarding orientation.

Can you imagine how UGLY that install would be if you had conformed to their requirement of operator orientation, and had to take the tubing up to the ceiling from below the manifold? Been there, seen THAT, and it was NOT a pretty sight.

But what's a mutha to do. THe manufactures are doing the best they can do... Maybe now is a good time for ME to get out of the hydronic heating business :-)

Happy New Year my friend.

ME

Norm Harvey

I completely missed that circ on the ceiling and its orientation,.. I was staring at the injection circs trying to figure out what was so wrong about it.

I definately see the motor side down circ at the ceiling and will definately correct that.

Norm Harvey

Thanks alot Weezbo for your thoughts.

By shortening the tube lengths you mean mount the manifolds closer to the ceiling. If I were to mount the manifolds right side up I would have to have the tubing come below the manifold then back up. Im trying to think of ways to keep the tubing neat. One idea is to have the tubing go down behind the board then come through a routered slot near where they would connect to the manifold.

How do you manage the tubing in your installs when the tube is comming from the ceiling?

Paul Rohrs_7

Best $1.00 I ever spent

I found this surgical hemostat (sp?) at a clearance bin at a hardware store. My decreasingly nimble fingers find this tool helpful with closely spaced 18ga wire within the Tekmar/Wirsbo enclosures.

Paul

Rob Blair

I remember that tool...

but it was a long time ago and cannot remember what I used it for? Ha-ha.

Rob

Weezbo

i have to fish mine out...

i will give it to the polar bears as a New years gift, show them how to use it so that they will quit cheating at chess and making excuses when they are losing and start rearranging the pieces with their big chubby fingers *~/:)

bovide_4

Norm is right

Is there a better way to install manifolds with the tubing coming down from the joists? And having it look graceful? And not wasting x number of feet routing the tubing from underneath?

[Deleted User]

Mount the manifold on the ceiling...

Other than that, no way to avoid waste and conform to makers request to avoid drippage into motor...

ME

Ed_50

Now, I'm sure......

..... you have been flipping manifolds upside down for years and years, just as I have. Right? :-}

hb

bovide_4

In my own house

I have the same situation. the manifolds are mounted right side up, and I tried everything - 1/2" copper return bends were the most graceful and least likely to end up the the "scary installs".

bovide_4

In my own house

I have the same situation. the manifolds are mounted right side up, and I tried everything - 1/2" copper return bends were the most graceful and least likely to end up the the "scary installs".