Copper piping on Steam boiler

Plumber7

I read everything that Dan writes. I have learned a great deal from his books and seminars. I learn a great deal from "The Wall" and some of the excellent heating experts on this forum. I know Dan and most of you don't think copper should be used on steam heating systems. It's almost sacrilegious to even mention it on the Wall. The reasons I've heard mentioned is because it will fail due to expansion/contraction and solder joints failing.
I very rarely see properly soldered copper piping fail on a steam boiler. Not many would question copper on a hot water system. The temperature difference is sometimes as little as 12 degrees. 200 compared to 212.
Is it the high temperature, or the speed in which the piping heats up when the water turns to steam? If you installed an entire new steam system with copper would it work? Would there be advantages to installing copper? Less dirt/rust in the system? Faster installation?
What is the problems associated with copper piping in on a steam system?
Speaking of steam, I know some of you have it shooting out of your ears right now because I ask these questions so: Remember this is the holiday season and I ask that you please keep the insults to a minimum, these are only questions. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.

Norm Harvey

It's not so much the temperature but the violent expansion when the water crosses that threshold from 212 degree water to 212 degree steam taking up so much more space. Imagine steam hitting condensate in a copper steam line the water hammer would certainly break a soldered connection.

I think copper below the waterline is fine because of the absence of that expansion.

To be honest I rarely see copper failing. Note though that rare does not mean "never"
I have never seen a iron threaded connection leaking.
I do think that the newer silver/nickel solders are what contribute to the "rare" condition. Solder a whole steam job with 50/50 and I think it would leak like swiss cheese.

The thought of a copper distribution system producing less sludge and rust is appealing, but imagine what would happen,... there would be so much less iron in the system for make up water to oxidize. I would think the boiler would rot out in record time since the only nearby iron would be the boiler.


I pipe mine in 100% iron because it is what is proper, and the professional way to do it. I consider myself a professional, and hold myself to a high standard of craftsmanship.

Brad White_184

It is not so much temperature

as cyclical heating and cooling. Hot water runs at reasonably constant temperatures minute to minute. Even with outdoor reset, the swings in temperature with all of that mass is fairly gradual both warming up and cooling down.

With steam, a 60 degree F. pipe will be 212-215 degrees moments later. Between cycles (and especially if uninsulated) it will be at ambient or nearly so in short order.

Take a copper soldered joint in your hands, say a coupling in a length of 3/4" copper. Gently flex it back and forth while idly watching TV, to replicate stress cycles (or to alleviate your own

Eventually you will get hairline cracks in either the solder or the copper itself.

Copper-bearing metals are "work-hardened"- take soft copper and work it by rolling, hammering or listening to Heavy Metal and it will become more rigid. Heat it past it's first critical temperature and let it cool to room temperature (annealing) and it will become dead-soft once again. Such critical temperatures are well above what a steam system generates so that annealing does not apply here.

Iron piping is quite adaptable to those stresses, moreover, the joints are.

Now, no one is saying that 100% of steam systems piped in copper will fail. But a high enough percentage will, enough compared to proper iron pipe-work, to say, "don't do that".

Like any risky behavior, yes you can do it without harm quite often. Just that the odds are you do not want to make a habit out of it.

Brad White_184

Dang, Norm...

We did not even coordinate our opening lines... you fast typer and piper you....

Norm Harvey

hehe
Thats funny Brad! I'm sitting here sweating while the wife is making cookies heating the house to 80 degrees and the kids are running around with toys so loud they break local ordinances... the wall is a sanctuary for me today

Tis the holiday season *smiles*

Anna Conda

The other problem with copper is that it sheds heat much more rapidly than does iron. That's what makes copper so suitable for a water system, but makes it a real problem for a steam system. The steam will start to condense before it even reaches the radiators, which leads to the water hammer problems that so many people with copper-piped steam systems complain of. Copper sheds heat so efficiently that the thickness of insulation required to prevent the steam from condensing prematurely would be unreasonable and expensive, probably moreso than iron.

bob young

KOPPER

IF all you say can absolutely be taken for gospel than this is the very best explanation i have heard to date on why not to use copper on steam. only problem i do have is that in the last thirty or so years , i have seen COPPER work about a million times. must be something about the atmosphere in new yor city. never saw a 95-5 joint fail either. personally i always use steel pipe. ....always.....usually !!

V8toilet

Copper pipe

My neighbors house up the street had a radiator connection come loose because he messed with it and while he was out the steam system was steaming. When he came home that room looked like a sona. All the paint and plaster was hanging off the ceiling too. Now imagine if the riser came loose on a steam boiler while it was steaming. Imagine how much moisture would be put into the air in a short period of time. Do you want to take that chance? Steam boilers properly maintained can last 25+ years with iron piping but has that been proven with soldered copper piping?

gerry gill

it isn't so much about

what will happen to the copper..the copper will probably be fine..copper will however degrade the iron or steel faster..this discussion has come up before and gets intense..personally i've grown weary of the fight..do your homework is my answer..if you do your homework you will answer your own questions..study about cathodes and anodes..if you do you will learn you want a small cathode to anode ratio..the more cathode (copper) the shorter the life of the anode (steel/iron)..i work on a customer ''iron fireman select temp'' system..piped entirely in copper..it has to be by design..cast iron boiler looks like crap..water always looks like chocolate milk..there is no where else in the system for the rust to have come from..

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