AFUE

bob_46

I was reading at PM's site about new DOE AFUE requirements. For boilers the AFUE min. will increase frome the current 80% to 82% by Nov.19,2015. DOE estimates that the installed cost will increase by $199.00. Pay-back due to increased efficiency is estimated at 12 years.

[Deleted User]

WOO HOOOooooo

We're cookin' with gas now eh bob...

Your gubernmint in action. Or would that be gubernmint inaction...

And to think, we PAID some beauracrat for that timely piece of information.

I realize its the best governemnt we have...

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, the government WANTED to go to like 90%, and the industry (GAMALAMADINGDONG) fought and won for the big 2 % increase

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

ME

Bob Sweet

On an up note

here in Albuquerque, as of April 08 the minimum allowable eff. rating of a piece of heating equip. will be 90% and minimum 15 seer on A/C equipment. For my company thats great, I think its the right thing to do because there is imperical evidence that it saves consumption.
On the other hand, this will discourage a significant amount of homeowners from replacing their equip. simply do to the cost difference of the equipment and labor involved. Which facilitates installations without inspections from contractors who just dont care, or get it.
To me this shows that without the local jurisdiction stepping up and educating themselves as well as enforcing the code, were heading for the same result as radiant heating brought in the late 80s early 90s (we can do it how hard can it be, oxy. barrier, whats that??) the industry suffers from incompetence.

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Steamhead (in transit)

So

what does the owner of a steam system do? Is there an exception because no one in this country makes a 90%+ steam boiler?

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[Deleted User]

Tsk. Tsk. Frank.

Gummint & reality? Are you trying to confuse them w/ logic? Don't you realize it's the thought that counts. Full speed ahead. Da _ n the consequences. Including the unintended ones!

Steamhead (in transit)

Yeah, I'm sure

that dose of logic would completely disorient them.... that's why I posted it (G)

"Steamhead"

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Bob Sweet

Tis the season to be green

you might want to ask those who are choosing the colors!

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ttekushan_3

In My Grumpy Opinion

The green movement is being adopted by the same corporations and bureaucrats who are responsible for where we are now (in the total energy consumption picture). Increases in AFUE beyond 85% or so (in my opinion) are reaching into a realm of diminishing returns -- and may push us backwards. Why? Because the energy intensity in manufacturing, increased cost (and prices) and the questionable life expectancy of the new appliances will require more resources during manufacture than will be recovered in life cycle fuel savings.

People who will prefer to keep a moderately efficient(not a total energy pig) yet bulletproof boiler (or whatever) are doing the environment a favor due to the "embodied energy" that exists in that piece of equipment. The environmental impact of that piece's manufacture came and went long ago. Replacing it requires it demolition, disposal, recycling, etc. The new piece of equipment has a tremendous amount of energy intensity involved in its manufacture. The continuing payback on the old equipment's original manufacturing energy is also terminated, "resetting" the life cycle energy consumption clock. Additionally,if the new product's life expectancy is anything short of its less efficient cousins, the life cycle energy consumption is higher than retaining the moderately efficient old beast or replacing it with a new one of decent efficiency with characteristics of long life and low service costs.

Ultra high efficiency products pay dividends--to "green" industry. The environment? Not so much.

In my opinion (grumpy version).

Did I mention that?



Off to bed for me. Tomorrow we continue work on NEW steam heat installation that I got to design. Its an addition onto a pretty large existing heating system. About 5 million btu existing, new additions involve a new main, headers, projection unit heaters, etc. About 550,000 btu worth in the addition. Plenty of boiler for it. I LOVE this kind of job!

-Terry

Unknown

Exacly how much.

How much more resources to manufacture a new 90+ boiler vs the old 80% traditional?

Just curious.

tk_3

I cannot see how our government can impose a 90% rule and not enforce proper sizing. This is like the tail chasing the dog.

Plumdog_2

40 years late with that one

But thankfully incandescent light bubs will be outlawed. When light bulbs are outlawed, only outlaws will have light bulbs. When you pry my cold dead fingers......

ttekushan_3

embodied energy

Here's a good primer on embodied energy:

Embodied Energy Description

True, incandescent lamps looks better when you consider how little energy is used in their manufacture. I hear that they will let us keep the halogen incandescent though. Compact fluorescents should have special recycling requirements due to their mercury and phosphor content. Of course, generating electricity with coal puts mercury in the atmosphere, so its tricky to determine the proportion of coal-generated electricity used in the market where the CFLs will be used to replace incandescents versus that used where the CFLs are made. Regardless, their manufacture causes no environmental impact since they're made in countries where "environmental impact" is defined, uh, "differently."

LED traffic signals are big energy savers, however. From now on that signal that turns RED as you approach it is "GREEN."

Fuel waste in traffic

Jeez. I must have a real case of the bah humbugs.

-Terry

Unknown

right on...

You got that right. I see so many oversized boilers.

Wayne_16

Windmilling

Windmilling as defined on the Joe Schuchery show on KSTP 1500 Mpls

[Deleted User]

Terry...

With all due respect, and you and Frank and anyone else who makes a living out of salvaging these grand old steam systems deserves a LOT of respect, I have to disagree.

I understand embodied energy. I just find it hard to believe that the embodied energy from cradle to grave for a cast iron boiler is less than a stainless steel boiler. Those numbers were not addressed in your attachment, but I still find in my gut feeling that the cast iron is going to cost more in resources to build, maintain, operate,move, transport and recycle than will stainless steel.

As for life expectancy, based on what we've seen in the last 10 years, I'm not sure anyone WANTS to buy and hold a piece of equipment for more than 10 years.

As it pertains to consumed energy, and carbon foot prinintg, again, based strictly on a gut feeling with no real firm data to back it up, the mod-con concept is LIGHT years ahead of steam. As for economics, no one in their right mind does EVERYTHING they do based purely on economics. If they did, solar in any form would not be practised, and GSHP would NEVER be considered. People do these things because its the "RIGHT thing" to do.

As a matter of fact, solar systems will not show a complete return on the investment before their anticipated life expectancy. And they have an EXTREMELY high emopdied energy in their construction (glass and aluminum).

I'm not practising conservation for myself. I'm practising it for my grand children and their grand children and future participants of the world.

It has been my experience (actual FIELD experience) that in 2 pipe steam systems that we convert to high efficiency hot water, that there is a 50% reduction in energy consumption with NO trade off in comfort, and if anything an INCREASE in overall comfort from avoiding over heating issues. That is not something that can be ignored.

Respectfully,

ME

ttekushan_3

and those 50% savings are real.

I agree -conditionally- that 50% in practice is not at all unheard of. Of course, I frequently get those kind of results with steam rehab/control upgrade.

Also, I get you're point about CI boilers. With a few notable exceptions, I don't care much for cast iron boilers, especially atmospheric types. I rarely get the kind of combustion and efficiency numbers in the field that they say I should. The most insidious fuel wasters are the "modernish" looking things from the 60's and early 70's. I will not mention brands, but there are some boilers from that era (both HW and steam) that are simply shocking in their inefficiency. And there's not a thing to do to improve them. This would explain why many around this site have mentioned 40%-50% savings being applicable to a boiler changeout in an old hot water system as well.

In my post I mentioned that you can't make an embodied energy argument when you are dealing with an energy pig of a boiler. If something really is getting around its stated 82-83% then we can talk about embodied energy. 68% doesn't cut it. Furthermore, I presume that good controls and modulation are the lion's share of the energy savings in conversions. So here we go again comparing steam single stage old CI with no or inoperable controls to HW sealed combustion, modulation and a myriad of controls. The efficiency gains because its hot water. Or maybe its because its sealed combustion, modulation, and control.

Speaking for myself only, its gotten to be an issue of us steam guys being put in a box labeled "mindless world of nostalgia."

Its ironic since what got me into steam was observing the comparatively low fuel costs, evenness, and quietness associated with good steam heating systems. Then the physics caught my attention when living and working in buildings with steam, noting how dynamic, responsive and adaptable it was. It seemed to be an inherently efficient system. I still view it that way. Soon thereafter I noticed how often it was a smart heating medium but had been "dumbed down" over time. For crying out loud, if the boiler can't stage fire down out of the pick up load, and the pressure builds too high too fast, the system's going to suck fuel. So for the addition of a vaporstat and utilizing two stage firing to get 30% fuel use reduction (before doing anything else!) illustrates how dumbed down average steam control has become over time.

The fuel use reductions we steam guys get with doing long overdue maintenance on these systems and in some cases creating mere two stage firing on relatively modern CI boiler are a reality that for some reason continues to be overlooked.

Over and over and over, we have noted the huge savings achieved through thought, knowledge, and the increasingly frequent "work around" we have to do with existing residential steam boiler technology. These numbers are substantially the same as those you and many others get with a radical conversion.

The insistence of looking at steam systems through the eyes of delta T's and flow rates will never get a steam system back to an efficiency level where is can and should be. I've seen low voltage room thermostats working in conjuction with a 5:1 turndown ratio boiler under the control of vaporstats (and new traps) cut 55% off steam heating fuel consumption. Did I mention that it was still steam?

I personally took a wasteful, ineffective steam system under my wing, replaced a few traps, overhauled its long languishing boiler, restored its modulating ability, and put the pneumatic thermostat system back in service. Upon completion, the outdoor reset control was reprogrammed to run HALF its originally required run time, with 30% or so of that time at reduced fire. Using the gas meter as a reference, the aggregate fuel savings on a day with full cloud cover and the same outdoor temp, is about 60% All this and restoring steam heat to sections of the building that were using the heat portion of the rooftop air conditioning units instead since the steam system couldn't heat those spaces anymore. And its still steam.

Notice the extraordinarily small energy input to achieve this result. This is what I'm trying to get across. Its about efficient use of resources both new and existing. Its about retaining a system that will be ready for the next generation of steam boilers, like those with integral economizers and automated blowdown (check out Miura). Its about thinking ahead to what the life expectancy and service costs on a system will be in 5 years, 7 years, 10 years and beyond.

It really is about the future, but not by clinging to the "baggage" of steam heat, but by carrying positive aspects of a technology that has great merit in the modern era. It doesn't hurt that there were brilliant minds of the past to influence its design; minds with values very much like our own. To them, economy also included longevity and minimal service costs. And to that, I agree.

-Terry

jp_2

PV systems

my PV system paid for itself before I ever used 1 watt of power!!!!

the cost of bring in the grid would have wiped me out, then I'd have to paid and paid and paid every month.....

theres no paid back to being tied to the grid!!!!

reduce your foot print.

jp_2

what?????

you really want the government to step in on every install and dictate boiler size????

Unknown

??????????

YEAH THAT;)…… No, just making it a requirement that a proper heat-loss be done and submitting it with the permit. Then have the inspector actually check that the unit is properly sized as well as installed.

Unknown

I am with u.

On the same page so to speak. I think that in the past few years the industry has started to progress forward after a very long stall. Not sure if it due to the fresh minds or the cost of energy. I for one have been looking for new technology and better systems going back to the early 90’s.
Between the new pumps, modulation, reset options, insulation improvements, we are finally starting to get it right. It is no longer just about putting in a boiler. It is about designing and engineering a system from the foundation to the roof that is energy efficient, tight, safe, and efficient. If only we could get the large home developers on board.

[Deleted User]

S.P.I.C.E.S.S.

Terry, If I may make a suggestion.

I would strongly suggest that people like yourself and Frank and Ed and all the dedicated steamsters get together and start a society. Call it the Society for Preservation and Increased Combustion Efficiency of Steam Systems, or SPICESS. If you pull your resources together, you have a chance of being able to assist in writing some legislation that dictates how these systems should be controlled and maintained, and how to make them as efficient as humanly possible.

I see no reason at all that people like yourselves, along with a great cast iron boiler manufacturer like Burnham couldn't come up with a modulating non condensing steam boiler that is nearly as efficient as the state of the art Mod COn boilers that are the current rage.

I fear, that if you stand in the back ground, that required increases in efficiency will pass you up, and you will find yourselves not being able to purchase the steam generators necessary to keep your systems running.

I don't follow steam that closely, but based on things I've seen from Frank and the likes, it would appear the Burnham is REAL close to being able to fulfill the modulation/steam boiler idea with their Megasteam offering. I am certain that it could be done quite efficiently using state of the art off shelf technology, and it is people like yourself that need to make it happen.

The 80 percenters just ain't gonna cut it. You need to be above 85% to stay in the arena of efficient fuel utilization.

Just an idea, but who knows. With all your dedication and real world experience, and assistance from the boiler manufacturers who have a lot to lose if steam boilers were to be outlawed, it might work.

Remember, all ideas start small...

ME

Steamhead (in transit)

Point taken, ME

and I've e-mailed a copy of this thread to Glenn. BTW, that's why we've switched to wet-base power-burner units for steam jobs. Atmospheric gas as it currently exists leaves much to be desired.

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ttekushan_3

Thanks for the encouragement, ME

Thanks for understanding that us steam guys out there are NOT tolerant of wasteful heating systems. Herein lies my own frustration. I can visualize what I want in a steam boiler, and I know its achievable given what I see in some industrial applications.

The Burnham MegaSteam gets us very much closer. Where I am located though, we have minuscule oil usage. Natural gas predominates in my neck of the woods.

You're right when you say that being in the background doesn't accomplish much in the grand scheme of things. I have delighted clients, but my clientele isn't even a blip on the radar screen.

I guess we should do something about that.

-Terry

Constantin

Allow me to ask a couple of questions...

... major caveat/ disclosure here, the DOE happens to be an important client ...

This is not a project I have worked on, it preceded my hiring by a couple of years. However, I'll simply suggest that everyone here who is throwing rocks at DOE take a moment to remember a scene from the life of the person whose birthday we're celebrating today. And so I ask those that want to criticize the following questions:

How many of you participated in this process? It's open to the public, transcripts, comments, etc. are welcomed and entered into the record. There have been multiple comment periods and the data is posted in the relevant sections on the eere.energy.gov web site.
Unless this rulemaking is different from the other ones I have worked on, DOE would have made lots of data requests related to installation, maintenance, and other costs. Who is better qualified to answer such questions than the folk who actually work on the product?
Have any of you gone to the open meetings in D.C. to participate actively? They are announced at least a month in advance.
Have any of you read the transcripts related to the various stakeholders and drawn any consequences as a result? That is, will any manufacturer that actively lobbied to lower AFUE requirements face a backlash from its customers?
How many of you have refused to install heated dog runs, driveways, and other instances of heating the great outdoors when mechanical snow removal was an option?

The process at DOE may have its flaws but it is fairly transparent and if any of you felt strongly about this topic then a more constructive approach would have been to participate before a decision was made. It's easy to criticize, it's better to get involved and make a difference.

Merry Christmas.

[Deleted User]

Some comments & observations.

1. Don't want to participate in DOE Hearings. If the gummint butts out, fuel prices will drive efficiencies. What's wrong w/ customers' making choices? Or is that not allowed in today's nanny state?

2. What good is a 90+% efficient unit if it is installed by someone who is stuck in the 1960's? That standing pilot, serviceable, 80% beastie, might be just the thing for installer - and customer.

3. Our unfair city has a Regulation about sizing heating equipment. It must be capable of heating to 70* when it is 0* outside. They don't want to hear that Design Temp has hovered around +15* for the last 30 years. Got to love it. Everything MUST be oversized, by gummint mandate.

4. The gummint requires 80* thermal efficiency for gas commercial storage type water heaters. Most manufacturers get there w/ vent dampers. Most of those are disconnected within the first 2 years. Many are killed by installers before leaving the job. Why? Nuisance shut downs. We give customers the choice. Replace, or not? They always ask how much. The answer almost always leads to another question. "Will I save enough gas to pay for it?" The answer. "Probably not." Reality trumps good intentions almost everytime. As it should.

5. The same types who hold hearings & issue mandates made a decision w/o holding hearings. They mandated B-20 Bio for gummint use. Wish they would ask the supervisor who is having to spend many thousands of tax dollars trying to keep that stuff flowing from an above ground storage tank, when the temperature drops below 40*, what he thinks of that decision. I'd like to repeat what he said to me. But, Dan wouldn't allow it.

6. Mark. No disrespect. However, my children & grandchildren will do very well. Unless gummint succeeds in controlling every aspect of their lives. The kids know how to make choices. That's what scares the bejeebers out of bureaucrats & some politicians. What those bureaucrats & politicians can, & will do, is what scares me.