Pick promblems with this install

Daniel_3

Is this a counter flow or parallel flow one pipe steam system? It looks like a counter flow with the dry return in the H loop picture for sure. I would say that if this be a counter flow those risers and steam mains are pitched back toward the boiler causing said hammer, they need to pitch away from the boiler. Not a pro install IMHO. And I am definitely not pro. Just my .00002 cents :)

Chas_2

What do you think of this install ?clammy

Just wonder what the pro's think of this install ,it was done by some one who runs a FAP ad here and the whole system needed alot of TLC to get the banging and short cycling and uneven heating to be corrected ,those who installed it also use a pic of it on there FAP ad it very hard for me to believe that the supposes pro who installed it could not corrct the job ,what i mean is if your in this bussiness i would guess you should be able to spot promblems way before you install a new boiler no?Or do you just yank the owners chain and charge them until they finally get smart and don't pay and then you try to sue only to lose your case and have to reemburse the owner for some of your extra charges and still have a steam boiler and system that does not work correctly,This kinda really made me lose faith in the FAP program by seeing the work of some praiding around as one but is really all about the money and when the stuff hits the fan they just look for a way out instead of running towards a promblem they ran away then bad mouthed the building owner staing that he was the promblem ,well to tell the building owner was really nice paid in full i guess when you screw up and don't want to fess up to it it's easy to blame some one else espically when you pretend to know what your doing .PS i walked through only 1/3 of the building and i realized what the promblems where peace and good luck clammy PS i installed the vapor troll and that new saftey valve the original one was seeping because it was under sized for the boilers output and also the original one was only 80 bucks while the correct sized saftey for the boiler was about 180 bucks on another note pressuretroll upon my arrival was set at over 3 1/2 lbs ?Pro or not a pro install what do you think again happy holidays clammy

JohnNY

I'll take the bait.

Robert (aka Clammy),
How many times are you going to pat yourself on the back for fixing this system?
We get it. It had problems and you made them go away.
You obviously know what you are doing so that’s what a guy like you does.

Do you know what a guy like me does?
Well, in this case, a guy like me takes a referral from an engineer who, working with the building owner and has sized the boiler on his own, hands me a spec and says, “Provide and install this boiler.”

That’s what I did.

After I installed the boiler exactly as recommended by the manufacturer’s specifications, the highly-altered system still had some lingering problems.
I tried in good faith to correct them but the job was way outside of my service area and travel time and expenses made the job impractical for me to handle, especially in light of the fact that it was the middle of the winter and the building had multiple problems yet the apartments were warm.
The building owner knew this from the start and while relations certainly did get tense between us, we eventually came to an agreement releasing us from the project after several return trips at my own expense.
This agreement was made after another independent engineer qualified the boiler replacement (our contract) as fully acceptable.

My brother/business partner and I are excellent tradesmen and we are professionals by anyone’s standards.
I’m proud of my company and my employees.

I would challenge anyone in this industry that would claim never to have had a problem job and that’s exactly what this was.

I understand that this system, in many efforts to repair it, had been cut into by many technicians before me and several after.
You seem not to acknowledge that there is very likely more to this story than you know.

You and I have never spoken yet the fact that you are yet again posting pictures of this job and citing me as incompetent suggest that your problems with me are personal and not professional.

After all, what is professional about your approach to all this?

When you spoke to my brother, asking for the boiler serial number, it was made clear that all the pertinent information was with the client and on record with the manufacturer and that after nearly two years we were no longer maintaining records from the project.

You fixed the system by installing loop seals et cetera and you’re proud of yourself.
Good job.
Is there any chance that we, two respected professionals, can move on from here?


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Unknown

I totally agree JohnNY,

we`ve all had "problem jobs" and bashing each-other on this, or any other forum does neither any good!

Dave

Chas_2

parell flow

this is not a counter flow system it is a parrell flow ,nice how they piped it yeah ,just yank the main down and make half the piping counter flow and yes this was installed by a pro who is listed here ,he did not correct the piping and yes about that half dry return but between the vaporstat and the loop seals on all end of the main drips the systems condensate reutrns to the boiler pretty much normal and she is not taking on water durning the cycle .the hydrolevel sxt feeder was not wired or displaying anything because it was wired wrong and the pros could not fiqure out how to wire it so they left it in a semi non working condition and when it did slightly work all it did was flood the boiler .on another note upon my first visit there where f and t trap here and there but being the return was being pressurized none of them would discharge so 1 main was full of water and spited water from a bunch of 1 st and 2 floor ,i don't know if the original pro's had put the f and t but they did in a last ditch effort they did try a condensate tank and pump which did not work and kinda ended there realationship with the building owner espically when you feed the condensate tank with a 1/2 water line from the feeder and install no wye strainer on the return lines which destroyed the pump and caused some real good flooding and water damage , Or it may have been some one else being the pro's said system was fine and building owner was being unreasonable but after they where done a bunch of plumbers knowing nothing about steam also stepped in and ruined the system even more then the first guys to me very very very funny ,every body can fix anything at least that's what they say but when big promblems appear they disappear .I personally go straight towards the promblem i think and believe that's how you fix them not by excuses and the blame game ,i thought that we are all professinals no?I would guess there needs to be a defination of what a professinal is and does ,i know the pro who did this will not post any thoughts on this cause when you are wrong there's no words that fix it only going there and doing the right thing fixes it .Hopefully Dan will not cut this thread i know he knows these guys as do others ,not looking to cause promblems but i want honest opions peace and good luck clammy

Chas_2

Last posts ever

I don't know john i am one guy i would like to run a Fap ad but i feel maybe i'm not bright enough and not a good enough bussiness man but i know BS when i hear it and if you have to go get a engeener to fiqure your jobs out well if it where me i would not do the job as for not leaving a serail # tags and such well that's total BS in my eyes it like you did not want any records of the fact that you guys where there and if all the loop seals and such whwre such a small thing why did no you guys fiqure it out .I'm not patting myself on the back at all i do this type of stuff straighten out system all the time ,the difference is i don't parade around as a pro i'm just one idiot that's it a idiot plain and simple .Here's the real name if you like also Robert Calmbacher aka clammy ,i sleep fine i don't know how you guyas sleep at all no peace and no luck clammy

DanHolohan

Clammy,

I think your post is out of line and not in keeping with the spirit of this place. I find it very unprofessional.

DanHolohan

I would trust

John and his brother Dave to work in my own home. I think they are superb professionals.

Timco

Clammy,

I would be highly offended if you came onto a past job of mine for any reason and started bad mouthing me...Especially here. You were not at any meetings between the owner and the past contractor and it is not your place to say one word about what you think was said or how unfair YOU think the previous contractor's deal was. It's just none of your business. If you find a problem, as you did apparently, fix it and move on. I never know who worked on the systems I look at last and do not care. I was called for a reason, and do what I am paid to do. It seems like you bring your work home with you, so to speak. You want honest opinions? Fix it and let it go.

Tim

Daniel_3

Be it known that I am not a pro and didn't read clammy's full post. I just looked at the pictures not knowing there was static related to this post. I must apologize for even getting involved at all. It's clear what my post was is just a guess at most without being privy to any other related information other than four pictures; boiler install, history of system, any other related parties. My bad gentlemen.

Scott Kneeland

professional

As most of you know I'm out spoken and now it's my turn on the soap box. Being a professional doesn't mean you are god. It means you try to provide the best practices, fair business, give back to the people, and do what is needed to correct a problem if your responsible. As far as the Engineer goes that is a knowledge resorce as is this web site. I read instruction manuals all the time, i ask questions all the time, I have spoken to engineers about building sizing and layout, Idon't feel this makes me anyless a professional than I was before. I'm sure if John was asked to review the issues and diagnose a repair plan he would of done so. Clammy as I am a FAP advertiser I take offense to your post thats not what this site is all about. Part of owning a sucessful business doesn't always mean you have the answer but that you know where to go to get it. As a fellow FAP advertiser I would like to apologize to John.

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The Wire Nut

Here I go again,

Clammy,

At the risk of once again causing some bow waves, I am going to weigh in here as a pro and as, in full disclosure, someone who does wiring work for John and his firm.

I have seen a number of their jobs, both steam and hot water, and all have been well done, as far as I can tell in my limited experience. I can tell you, without needing the benefit of experience, that his jobs are always neat and well done.

I have also seen how John interacts with his clients on service calls and his concern, nay, conscientious desire to make sure that the job is right, the client is happy and their concerns and needs are satisfied.

All that being said, you've turned this into a personal diatribe against a fellow professional, without first hand knowledge of what transpired before, nor what may have happened after they were involved.

You've also lashed out at John's response without really reading it. For example, he didn't say he needed an engineer to design the job, rather the building engineer gave him the specifications. Further, your disparaging engineers, or, at least the need of them, displays an arrogance and short sightedness of this and so many other professions.

It's engineers, like Sigi, and so many others, that provide innovation, knowledge and, more often than not, a helping hand to those who have made errors in design and need help. If you think you don't need them, or at least the need to acknowledge their contributions, then you are the one that perhaps needs to stop and reevaluate what business you are in.

And calling yourself an idiot is no excuse for your lack of respect. You are, I'm sure, far from an idiot. Anyone who can appreciate the magic of steam and water flow is far from an idiot. But lashing out like you have you might need to step back and evaluate what this profession means to you.

Is it a constant battle against "idiots" and "incompetent" FAP contractors? Or is it a brother(sister)hood of people who like to share ideas, offer a helping hand, provide help and answers and, yes, sometimes offer constructive criticism.

I have been the benefit of all that, including my fair share of constructive criticism. It has rather than angered me, educated me, and has provided all the more impetus to improve my knowledge and skills within this profession.

As for the FAP, it is a marketing tool, available at reasonable cost, and with a track record of providing a tremendous amount of new business for those who use it. And the few clients that have had problems with a FAP have been known to use this site to express their concerns, but always allowing the P to respond. And they generally resolve the issue in a non combative manner.

Clammy, I know that being in business for yourself is stressful and sometimes extremely frustrating. I've been doing it for about 1/2 my professional career (which spans over 30 years). But it's important to step back and learn to enjoy the small pleasures in life and realize why you do what you do.

With the holidays rapidly approaching, I offer you a glass of good cheer, and a 6 pack of good will. I hope you can do likewise, if not for me or the others in this profession, then at least for yourself.

Off the soapbox and back to hugging my kids...

Alex ("How many times can you watch "A Christmas Story"") Marx...

Maine Doug_68

Ode to Christmas Stress

Sometimes the wall posts from clammy

Are fun in their being quite hammy

But this boiler he tackled

Was engineeringly shackled

And thus was piped the big whammy

tommyoil

Yikes!

First of all Maine Doug....dont quit your day job. Secondly, while I havent been as involved here as in the past, I will jump in here uninvited. Clammy, I have ALWAYS thought very highly of your commentary as well as any job photos you have posted here. Its always very neat work and appears to be very professional. While you may have repaired a derelict system, it seems to have been reduced to a personal vendetta of sorts against the previous contractor. I am surprised by your attack(for lack of a better word) on him and would have never expected that from you, just from what I know of you here. Your stock seems to have gone down a bit. Please dont misconstrue here. I am not "jumping on the bandwagon" aginst you. I just am of the school that being a professional is a total package. Its not just what you do in the basement, but how you carry yourself overall in the basement and out. Even IF, (and thats a big if), Johns company screwed the job up royaly, its really not your job to report it to us here on the wall all while pointing a slanderous finger at a the previous contractor. (Who, in this instance, we all know from here.) Its one thing to take and post pics for all to disect. Its how we all learn and move on. But to do it in the fashion that you did seems to have left a collective bitter taste in all of our mouths. It doesnt change my mind though. I still think your work is quality stuff. Its the slanderous diatribe I could do without. Someone let me know if I'm out of line here. Sorry if thats the case.
Tom

mikea23

More to the story

Clammy

I myself have gone to jobs and repaired other contractor installs I think we all have. But one thing I learned is there is 3 sides to every story. Not myself or any of my employees will ever bad mouth another contractor. Its rule number one with all our service people. Even if its diserving you always look bad in the end.

We recently bid on and won a contract for heating in a very large estate. The Engineer totally oversized the system 3 times more then needed. After we won the bid I asked the EG firm if I can make some aterations to plans and improve the system and even save them some money we were told NO CHANGES . I folowed this up in writing stating that the system was not a good fit for the job and we recomened that the plans be reviewed and new calcs done.
A few months later the homeowner called there oil company complaining of high oil consumptuion. The oil company said system is way oversized and contractor should never had installed it. They had no complaints on the workmanship just the size of system he even refered to me as a crook and that I over estimated to pad my pockets.

long story short a profesional should always look at both sides.

Mike A

Daniel_3

Boy that's crooked . . .

Stan_10

WoW

I love seeing people hack up steam systems. Nothing like Ballvalves, Cooper piping rubber gaskets in flanges etc. I just went to a building last week installer posts here and he installed the LWCO in the BOTTOM of a dirt leg on the return and it was wired wrong.I insall nothing but commercial units and I must agree with clammy. 99 percent of my jobs are drawn by a draftsman but if i see it willnot work then I will let them know and change it. Im not telling people who do hydronic systems to stay away from steam systems but they need to read theres more to it then the average oil guy thinks. Dans book is a great start.

Mad Dog_2

I don't think John and Gateway deserve such abuse, Clammy

and, I am actually very and surpised and disappointed that you would take him to the mat at The Wall...unnecessary, Dude! Nobody's perfect, and as you know The Steam is a very unforgiving art. I wanted to stay out of this, but John is a friend, a very good man, and an asset to this site. I think you went far overboard here, Clammy, you are impugning a man's reputation. And, just for the record, I have personally had my arse kicked by The Lost art many times over and have lost oodles of time on $$$ learning it. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all. Mad Dog


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Mad Dog_2

I spoke with John about this job..............

I have been in that position before: You take a job based on what "THEY" tell you, do the job and before you know it...YOU and the company have now INHERITED ALL the problems of the system, i.e, all the aborted alterations, handymen approaches, et al. The only real mistake he may have made is not having a more explicit and detailed contract as to what he was there to do. I have made this mistake, even recently FOR THE LAST TIME. Today, you not only have to spell what you ARE doing, but what you are NOT responsible for and are NOT DOING. John is a good man, took BEATING on this job, kept going back, and then, wisely disengaged. From the consulting that I do, it is rare that that folks can even get a phone call back after the job is done. Mad Dog

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bob young

CHANGE ORDER TIME

Perfect opportunity for those wonderful YELLOW change orders.Mathew !! [ additional work authorizations ] i love those jobs. handled correctly the opportunites are endless.

Mad Dog_2

You are correct Bob,,,,

and you are the one who set me straight on that. Thanks forever!!! Mad Dog

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