plumbing permit question

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_8

It was our grandfathers or great-grandfathers or great-great-grandfathers in the plumbing trade who are to blame. As sanitary plumbing evolved, the plumbers wanted standards developed to ensure quality/safety and they wanted their work inspected to verify its quality.

My how things have changed.

As for more or less rules? Speaking strictly from my own personal experience, more rules will make things worse. Prior to PA's UCC state-wide adoption, plumbing was the only licensed and inspected trade here. Plumbing inspectors tended to be retired plumbers, for the most part, and inspections typically included an actual inspection by a guy who knew what he was looking at.

The UCC adoption suddenly found the same PI was now inspecting everything mechanical and the building structure too! PA was shy of inspectors by the thousands and remains shy of the number needed. The PI's were grandfathered in for three years and then had to become state-certified. Many were old enough that they didn't want to get certified. But, the real fun was that the tests to become 'certified' are, according to several inspectors that are now certified, a joke.

So, no more rules till this mess gets fixed as far as I'm concerned and no more rules until they start enforcing the existing codes - for everyone - not just for the licensed pros.

shawn laverty

I live in Massachusetts and was trying to obtain a plumbing permit for a bathroom. I am a licensed master plumber working for a company. I have pulled hundreds of permits for this company before in the past. I pulled a permit today and the plumbing inspector called our office saying only the owner of the plumbing company can pull permits. Has anyone ever had this problem?

Rich Kontny_3

Bond

Many jurisdictions require a bond to be in place before permits are issued. If the bond happens to be in your company's name it popped up a red flag.

Why are you trying to bypass your firm anyway?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_8

yes

I missed the fact that you were trying to obtain a permit for a side-job. If that's accurate, the other posts in this thread certainly apply.

That's true for my area in PA and I must, in most cases, leave my otherwise productive work to drive to the various municipalities and appear in person to obtain said permits. Evidently they are unaware that Bell's device can be utilized to fax permit applications and also utilized to process crredit card charges. Then there's this thing called the Internet!

All in all, I'd feel much more inclined to play ball if the majority of our local inspectors were competent, but the reality is that most do not actually inspect the work. The homeowner is paying for services they are not receiving.

If that's not enough to put frost on yer pumpkin, then add this: only licensed contractors are required to obtain permits & inspections. There is no enforcement - zip - nada - none at all - for unlicensed contractors who choose to work without the bother of obtaining permits or inspections and no interest on the part of our local municipalities to go after the scoff-laws.

It's enough to give you heartburn. Most local contractors have decided to stop obtaining permits and inspections except in those circumstances where they're most likely to be caught. Our PA legislators have begun to admit our state's codes enforcement and recently state-wide adopted Uniform (which it's not!) Construction Code is broken beyond repair.

jackchips_2

The

inspector is technically correct, Shawn. Remember, you can only pull a plumbing permit in our state if you have insurance or the homeowner signs a waiver.

The owner of your company, if the Corporation is under his license, carries the insurance.

I'm not an attorney but my guess is in those communities that you actually pulled the permit you personally would be at risk, not the person who carries the insurance.

The company I work for used to be under the Master license of one of our managers and he signed all permits.

Hope this helps,

Jack

Unknown

Very well said, Mr Yates!

I totally agreed with what Dave Yates's article. Had county building inspector passed the building inspection regarding two gas water heaters jointly to common vent inside an airtight room with no make up air inlet, next to sleeping quarters... I questioned him needing the air let, he looked at me, " What for? The prints said they are electric water heaters." I asked him if its was himself been on the job doing the inspection and replied yes... Then I asked how the **** with my and other taxpayers money you get the job? He's one of the college education grad as he beamed... Ggrrrrrrrr I screwed the window open so I can sleep better

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_8

One local inspection agency

that can't keep up with its work-load (because they low-balled the cost per permit and therefore gained lots of the 78 local municipality locked-in inspections - as in you have no choice but to use them) has started doing drive-by inspections of sanitary sewer installations. They don't even bother to get out of their little Ford pick-up truck. All they ask is if you've got a water test on the line and for how long. For this great service, the plumbing contractor gets to stand idly by awaiting that blessing - often for hours.

If that doesn't constitute fraud, then I'm at a loss to define what does.

One building contractor decided to buck the system and hired his own state-certified inspector. The township's own plumbing inspector, one of the few really good inspectors we had, balked at this because he'd uncovered multiple defects in the building. The township caved to the builder's demands and overruled their own in-house inspector who then quit and moved to another state where he works as an inspector in a municipality that backs him up. We lost a great inspector.

However, the state is considering allowing all of us to hire any state-certified inspector, which will eliminate my having to use the services of those who don't really provide adequate inspection for those who do their jobs. But, this will open a new can of worms because there is no oversight of the inspectors and it won't take long for shady contractors to discover who's not paying attention.

shawn laverty

Sorry guys I gave the wrong info. I was trying to pull the permit for the company i work for. I have always pulled the permits for The company before. But i am not the owner. I did solve the problem though just picked a bunch of permit applications and have the owner sign them all with his number.

jp_2

more or less?

question is, do we need more or less government?

will more rules really help when the current rules aren't even followed?

how did our grandfathers ever get anything built? seems theres a lot of 100yr old structures around here.

Dan C._4

permit

There is a spot on the permit app for the homeowner to sign that he understands that you don't have insurance. The homeowner needs to sign that and then you should be able to get the permit. http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/dpl/boards/pl/plmgappl_hard.pdf

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

mikea23

Some towns in my area want only a licensed master plumber on site at time of inspection. The reason given was that they want to prevent people pulling permits for unlicensed guys. Its Ok if you have a small shop but whith more then two or three trucks it very hard to be onsite myself for every inspection.

Plumdog_2

Does my heart good

To see that the local Constabulatory are finally beginning a crack down of sorts on the hacks and wanna be's that have been plumbing without proper credentials. Our state (Colo.) now requires a Master Plumber to register as a Contractor, and pull all permits for only one Company. They must show Workmen's Comp Compliance, among other things. I was tickled to see a long list of actions taken by the State Board for violators. About Time!
I griped about the non-enforcement every chance I got for 16 years.

Randy-Lee Braman

Permits and such

I have to agree with Dave Y.,PA is a PITA,and it differs from township to township what a inspecter may want.and when you go to get a permit you have to deal with the township seceretary who does'nt know what shes doing,i've seen it take three weeks to get a permit because the paper work was'nt done,luckily In our neck of the woods(ne PA)
if the inspecter does'nt show in a timely fashion you can keep going and you do have recourse if he does show up days after he was suppose too and complain.I've had jobs done complete before the inspecter showed his face,sorry charlie,we called for inspection where were you?
Randy

Rich Kontny_3

Needed

We need the codes to insure public safety, we need proper enforcement and uniform enforcement to insure the codes are followed. Without proper enforcement the codes are toothless.

If you want to kiss the trades goodbye avoid the codes. If you want to maintain the level of standards that for the most part have evolved fairly then support competant and uniform enforcement. In fact, demand it.

With all the engineered products out there for DIYs we would see very unsafe and unpoliced installs everywhere without the permit and inspection process.

Like tradesmen there are less than qualified inspectors, this has to be dealt with individually. Here in Wisconsin we have a very good permit/inspection system and it works well. I also realize that this is not the case everywhere. The answer is to get involved and become part of a well enforced fair code system.


Contribute more by consuming less!

Rich K.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Rich

After a thoroughly incompetent inspection, I went to the township commissioners' meeting and spoke publicly, on the record, about the problems. While I concentrated on specifics within their borders regarding the permitting/inspection process and the third-party inspection agency that is the larger issue/problem, I did touch (briefly) on the larger picture.

During my time on the floor, which was damned intimidating, I stressed (repeatedly) that properly enforced codes would protect the health and welfare of their constituents AND that we professionals want our work to be inspected to verify our work is compliant with codes. I freely admitted we all make mistakes & that a competent inspector has the ability to catch those errors and (without rancor or abusive overbearing behavior) point them out. All pros, I said, will willingly accept that type of constructive criticism. However, it is completely unacceptable to have our customers, your constituents, pay for a service designed to protect them from potential harm and then not receive what they've paid for. Absent their willingness, or ability (read - backbone) to correct their chosen third-party inspector's practices, I asked that they allow us to hire our own state-certified third-party inspection agency.

Fell on deaf ears.

I don't want to abandon the codes, I want them to be enforced - evenly and across the board - for all, not just one select group that happens to be visible on the radar because they are pros with a license.

I want our work inspected - by pros in that field, not by those who are fraudulently extracting money from our customers while using us as their bag men. I deeply resent being made to participate in this current process.

Rich Kontny_3

Dave,

With the current climate of anti-tax /anti big brother I can appreciate your battle. We have a strict certification process for our inspectors and an accountability system where they are scrutinized.

Don't give up the fight you are right! Do you belong to any trade organizations to back you up??


It is a crime that you are trying to make things right and running into brick walls.

jp_2

no easy solution

I've asked for inspections and never got them.

a license often has no meaning:
I let a licensed electrical company do a job cause I knew it needed permits(more than one), they took out no permits and didn't follow code, I would have done a better job.....


customer had leaking new(5yrs old) bathtub faucet, plumber said faucets like that always leak, need new faucet- lots of money. I fixed it with a Delta $6.00 o-ring repair kit. took about 1.5 hrs including trip to hardware store.

are you really interested in taking on those jobs under 2-3 hrs? so there are multiple sides to this story.

but I'm only a one person company so I live in the small picture of things.

EBEBRATT-Ed

In Mass. a company must have a masters license in The COMPANIES NAME. The procedure is that the company hires a master plumber who files the necessary paperwork with the state to transfer his masters license to the company. Your name also remains on the license. Of course ther is a fee! of about $300 The master must also be an "officer" in the company Vice president etc.

If you leave the company you pay the fee again to get the license back in your name.

I'm not a plumber but a simple gas fitter and the same rules apply.

ED

denny reardon_2

permit

ed is right. In mass the same rule apply for both plumbing and gas fitting permits. The master plumber must be an officer of the corporation.

Dave_4

permits

Ah yes dave tis the time of year again to make the annual trip to all of the townships in the county to pick up the old plumbing liscense again. Yes and if they do get a statewide liscense passed the townships will still have there say and charge us for a yearly permit to conduct a plumbing business. Just my two cents worth!!!!!

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

The PHCC

decided to ignore this issue. Although they agreed it was something that affects all of their members, they decided not to lend their support.

Our local PHCC chapter voiced support privately, but failed to show up. Other local contractors indicated they too agree, but they too failed to show up. Everyone, it seems, lives in fear of retribution by inspectors & fearing speaking up/out will cause them to be targeted. So, it's a lonely trek, but one I'm now committed to walking. The journey has begun and it's already cost me major $$$ for lawyer's fees. It is a worthy quest and I will continue to fight for what's right.

Randy-Lee Braman

I feel your pain

Dave i feel your pain,the main township i work in hired a agency to do inspections,when they show up on time you get a inspecter who who has to have the book in his hand.
I want my work inspected,but not by a fool who
only knows what the book says.which might be out of date.
The last inspection we had the inspecter told me i was'nt
useing the right material for a steam boiler,should use copper not black iron,OK,next!!!!!
Randy

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Mutual pain society!

Recent inspection saw the inspector telling the GC he wouldn't pass our rough-in because we'd used couplings in the PVC vent! It was a retro-fit remodel - hence the coupling.

I called him up & politely went through the plumbing code book with him. He aplogized and corrected his finding, but that error in judgment caused a three-day delay for the GC and cast doubt on our work in the homeowners' eyes. The inspector asked if he could call on me in the future to help him better interpret the codes and possibly avoid future glitches. I told him I'd help if I could spare the time.

Rich Kontny_5

Push for....

A uniform state plumbing code with uniform enforcement.Our issues here in Wisconsin are almost always related to enforcement or lack there of. I cannot imagine a State without uniform codes and enforcement.

Time to contact your legislators and demand change. Change for the better!