I-R buys Trane (Dan H.)

Brad White

that the outcome may not be what everyone wants (nothing is), but on the other hand, having an iron fist of government dictate the costs of doing business is anathema to a free society.

So long as a corporation, person or entity pays their fare share of the costs of their existence (such as borne by local property taxes to support roads, fire protection, schools, police, health and safety), I have no complaints.

Above and beyond that is, well, above and beyond that.

When a corporation goes off-shore to Place B, I have to ask why that is. Because corporations are in business to make money (they have no other purpose, let's be clear here), then I have to assume it is because the cost of doing business are unacceptably high in Place A.

But any local brick and mortar facility does at least pay their share of local taxes to support the basic infrastructure as we all do. An exception or mitigation of that might be an Enterprise Zone or other locally-deemed tax break or benefit package by a locale that wants to create jobs. Lower the cost and jobs can be created, no one argues. The reverse also holds true. Make the costs reasonable and no one has a reason to leave.

DanHolohan

Quite large now.

I-R buys Trane

ALH_4

Profit

Sure seems like someone at American Standard has had a profitable year. These companies are sold to the highest bidder for the short term gain of a few at the top and to manipulate short term stock prices. Unfortunately, the employees and possibly the product offering could very easily suffer from the moves A-S has made recently. I guess we will see. As a native North Dakotan, it's also hard to believe that Bobcat is now a South Korean company. So it goes...

[Deleted User]

Most repulsive part of that story is...

..."Ingersoll-Rand, based in Hamilton, Bermuda,...The company, which operates from Montvale, New Jersey..."

All we middle-class folks are paying I-R's fair share of US taxes.

joel_19

can't beat 'em???

Then why not join them fly down to Belize of where ever rent a UPS box hire a local accountant and poof your a multi national corporation!

ALH_4

Taxes

In skimming the story, I somehow missed that statement. It's shameful how we allow American corporations to skirt our laws so easily. Why do "our" representatives in Congress still allow this?

Brad White

Freedom to Choose

I live in Massachusetts with a 5% sales tax. To our south is Rhode Island with a 7% sales tax except on boats. (Food and most clothing is exempt in each state.) To the north is New Hampshire with neither a sales nor income tax.

When one has to buy a major appliance or spend a chunk of cash, one weighs the gas and drive time you see.

More to the point, (and I do not mean to take any sides here), corporations do not pay taxes. Corporations collect taxes and incur costs in doing so. Any taxes collected are built into the costs of goods and services which is born by the consumer. Thus any tax a corporation pays is not really paid by the corporation but is passed on.

When taxes are imposed and this raises the cost of those goods and services versus the world market (possibly going against other countries which actively subsidize their industries with their own tax dollars), a corporation has to make a choice: Sell Widgets (alway widgets, don't ask) for X or X + 10% against Widgets from Europia at X-10%.

Throw in a world-class golf course overlooking the ocean and hello Bermuda...

ALH_4

Good or Bad?

I have virtually no business training and I could be wrong, but business practices like that appear to me to be based on short term gain for executives and shareholders that will eventually result in a net loss for our country.

ALH_4

Profits

I'm not sure I agree that we should base judgements of the cost of doing business in America on the cost of doing business in other countries, particularly in those countries where the cost of doing business is far different from our own. Compare our costs to China's and ours looks high. Compare it to Germany, and it might look low. My opinion is that this only temporarily subsidizes our economy, and the reckoning after our decades-long binge on cheap products could be painful.

Corporate profits ultimately come from Americans, many of whom are laid off when the company moves production overseas. How many of the tens of thousands laid off by Kodak or Ford will be buying new heating systems in the near future? Where do those people go? Are there equivalent or near equivalent jobs created for them in other industries? Probably not, as the layoffs ripple through the regions where these people are now jobless or have left to find jobs elsewhere. All this is compounded as energy prices increase.

These fluctuations can impact contractors almost immediately as new construction and remodeling drops off. I think we should keep jobs here, even though it means we have to pay a bit more for certain products. When the jobs are gone, what can we buy? Yes, corporations exist for profit, but I dont think it should be profit at any cost. There is more at stake than whether General Motors makes its profit projections for the third quarter.

I will get off my off-topic soap box now. ;-)

jp_2

it all started,

i think it all started with the cotton gin?

my problem with corps is that they react way too slow, by the time Kodak realize people weren't buy film, the digital camera market was light years ahead of them, as least, thats what I heard on NPR....

Frank Discussion

Profits

> I'm not sure I agree that we should base
>judgements of the cost of doing business in
>America on the cost of doing business in other
>countries, particularly in those countries where
>the cost of doing business is far different from
>our own. Compare our costs to China's and ours
>looks high. Compare it to Germany, and it might
>look low. My opinion is that this only temporarily
>subsidizes our economy, and the reckoning after
>our decades-long binge on cheap products could be
>painful.
>

Yes, but you are not speaking from the company's perspective. To a corporation, salaries are a cost that should be minimized for their stockholders.

If building a new plant in China is too expensive now,
perhaps their profits are better invested in Africa
or Vietnam. But eventually, not too far in the future,
most factories will be automated and then profits will
be still higher. People are expensive, wherever they
are. Silicon is cheap and getting cheaper.
Buy low, sell high. Thats the name of the game.
Corporations are not welfare agencies. They are not
there to 'provide' jobs as many people mistakenly believe.
That is Communism. Corporations job is to make money.

> Corporate profits ultimately come from
>Americans, many of whom are laid off when the
>company moves production overseas.

Actually, most corporations are multinational and their
profits come from all over the world. The dollar is not
worth so much now, so actually, many corporations would
prefer to get paid in euros now. American expats who have
moved to Europe to find work find that euros go much
further than dollars.

How many of the
>tens of thousands laid off by Kodak or Ford will
>be buying new heating systems in the near future?

It doesn't matter to Kodak or Ford or any company who
buys their products so much as that somebody buys them.
Many commodity products are not that profitable so they
often prefer to try to diferentiate themselves in other
ways, by finding profitable niches. I agree with you,
the markey needs consumers to survive, however, from the
corporation's perspective, the economies of indvidual
nations are less of a concern than that the governments
of those nations create a favorable climate for business.

>Where do those people go? Are there equivalent or
>near equivalent jobs created for them in other
>industries? Probably not, as the layoffs ripple
>through the regions where these people are now
>jobless or have left to find jobs elsewhere. All
>this is compounded as energy prices increase.
>
Yes, during the last Great Depression an entire generation
learned the lesson that for business to thrive, there needs
to be a tripartite partnership between people, business and
government. However, then, business was far more dependent
on labor than they are now. Technology has liberated business management from labor to a great extent.
As labor's economic and political clout declines, business feels that it should be getting a better deal because supply is going up and demand is going down. They feel wages should be declining globally. And indeed they are. Its supply and demand that determines wages, largely.

> These fluctuations can impact contractors
>almost immediately as new construction and
>remodeling drops off. I think we should keep jobs
>here, even though it means we have to pay a bit
>more for certain products.

Tell your Congresspeople that. But I think that most people can't afford to pay 50% more for everything as they used to. The American consumer is being squeezed. Its not the postwar era when the US was flying high after most of the rest of the industrialized world had been destroyed, remember.

We are also letting our educational system decline.
That amounts to giving up the race. Many top students
can't afford to go to college. In many other countries,
they would not have to take out $150,000 in loans to go to college.

> When the jobs are gone,
> what can we buy?

That is not their problem as long as someone can buy their products. As I said, many companies are focusing on
overseas sales and also the market for luxury goods is
very strong. I agree with you in that I also think that
many allegedly "American" companies are so fixated on short
term profits from cheap labor that they are ignoring the
long term outlook. But our whole business climate encourages
that. Building new factories or investing in equipment in
the US is frowned upon by their management consultants and
companies that pay high wages to their unionized workers are
also penalyzed on Wall Street for doing so. Many companies
are "American" in name only and have long ago moved most
of their manufacturing and now their R&D overseas
because its so much cheaper. If we were to stop doing so
the governments of those nations would accuse the US of
hypocrisy because we have for so long been such vocal advocates of free trade when it went the other way,
we can't stop now.

> Yes, corporations exist for
>profit, but I dont think it should be profit at
>any cost. There is more at stake than whether
>General Motors makes its profit projections for
>the third quarter.

Yes, I agree. Disinvestment in the US is bad for all Americans and eventually it will lead to the US being a nation of bitter uneducated people, with nuclear weapons.

But talk is cheap. Changing things will require a national
dialogue and action. People like you need to speak up otherwise this battle will already be over.

It almost is and basically now this country is being
looted. Everything worth taking is being taken.
Away.
Or hadn't anybody noticed?

Don't blame it on immigrants, one of the few bright spots
in this economy.

Its our own flesh and blood who are doing the looting.


> I will get off my off-topic soap box now. ;-)