Hey Mike T.

scott markle_2

Mark I'm sorry for the disrespectful tone, I do respect your experience and come to the web to pick up bits and pieces from the likes of you, please see this as only an effort to stimulate good natured conversation. I have an ax to grind about the war and the disparity of wealth in this country not with you.

As far as the glass heating goes, as I conceded I am only going on my intuition here, However If I was a trained engineer I'm pretty certain there was not quite enough information in your description to prove any breakthrough in electrical resistance heating technology. One posters speculation about convective currents being arrested is interesting,aside from this what was the compelling explanation of how putting heat at the physical point of greatest loss (glass) by one of the most inefficient means possible (electrical resistance) could possibly amount to something progressive in terms of energy conservation.

As far as were I sit, I'm a newcomer to the field. I'm a poly-mechanical type who has been involved mainly in residential renovation. My interest in hydronics began when I built my own house in 1989. I learned first hand about the dynamics of radiant heat. About four years ago my local supply house had a hands on display of of Stadler-Viega. pex press tools. I was immediately inspired by the possibilities I saw in this and bought the tools and attended a Viega training seminar. I learned how to calculate head loss and flow rates and the invaluable gpm=btu/20xdeltaT . My fist independent job was a direct connected vito-combi with runtle and panel rads parrell piped in 3/8" pex. The sales guy at the supply house told me the 3/8" wouldn't work, I did the math and it did. I have 3 vito's and 3 gb boilers installed for happy clients and a vito in my own house. I continue to attend training seminars and have worked part time with an excellent established radiant designer/installer.I have no interest in in installing any thing other than condensing boilers, I would rather be doing carpentry than inefficient heating.

Unfortunately that's what I'm doing right now (carpentry), while I'v had some great opportunities I am currently realizing that creating a business around this(efficient heating) may require some additional self promotion, I Guess part of my venom is about feeling resentful that I haven't done a system in 7 months, and how hard it can be to convince cash strapped regular people of the value of this sort of investment.

Scott

Unknown

With so many,

converted gravity systems out there that were piped to newer CI boilers with no return temp protection to speak-of for years,,,are we "banging our heads" to insist on it for a replacement?
Thoughts?

Dave

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Certainly can't hurt and seems to sometimes help, but not always necessary. If replacing with a well-sized conventional boiler, an ESBE thermostatic bypass is a good addition for simple gravity conversions.

Unknown

Ya, most of us knew that,

but the prob remains, if heat is attracted to cold(as we all know), then how would a TV valve be a plus?

Dave

Mark Eatherton

Thermic valve works on EVERYTHING!!

If you don't want the boiler to see to low of an entering water temperature, slap a Thermic valve on it. It works amazingly well.

About the only application where I wouldn't consider its use is on a strictly gravity system. (no pump to overcome the pressure drop of the thermic.)

I've used them on CFT, med. mass CI, high mass CI, steel fin tube etc with excellent results.

About the only precaution I could give is to incorporate a bypass around the Thermic to aid initial purgeing. Once you establish a good clean purge and solid flow, close the bypass and watch it do its magic.

They should be mandatory on all non condensing boilers IMPO. Although I don't think that anyone should be installing anything BUT a mod con, regardless of the temperature of application...

ME

scott markle_2

Strong words from someone recently advocating electrical resistance as a means to overcome bad window design. Sorry for the jab, but I'm not sure I quite buy the thermodynamic voodoo your advocating there, I concede I'm working with intuition not empirical evidence as far as that judgment goes.

Your in the Robert Bean camp- you sell comfort and efficiency, With an emphasis on comfort, because this is the real selling point. Personally I can't help seeing the contradictions here. While efficiency is crucial to our national energy policy, How does a single family 7000sq. foot second home fit in to this? Is the working class family in a 1500sq.ft ranch to feel guilty for not upgrading there well maintained less than ideal oil burner, When their energy use is still a fraction of what these gilded oligarchs consume for a vacation home. Ironically the ranch house occupants may have loved ones suffering in iraq, While military contracts probably sweeten the portfolio's of your potential clients. Maybe these folks need a cold draft to wake the up from the false comfort of entitlement.

Sorry for off topic class warfare rant, I'm all for condensing boiler technology, but the struggle to save this country is far more complicated than legislating efficiency.

I enjoyed this piece, which does a fine job of illustrating the contradictions I'm talking about.

http://taxshine.com/subsun4.html

[Deleted User]

VooDoo Doo Doo

Are you referring to the work done by a nationally recognized research and development laboratory in Kansas, or the alledged comfort that I've been delivering to my alledged zombie customers for over thirty years?

As it pertains to legislation, who said anything about legislation? Let the price of energy rise to where it should be, and see what the consumer chooses to do with their money... Personally, I think the governemnt should keep its nose OUT of the energy conservation business. Let the free market pressure do its thing.

I've been doing conservation for over a 1/3 of a century, and the only effective way I've found to get people to conserve is to grab them where it hurts, by their pocket book.

Now, which VooDoo is it that you were talking about?

Curious minds want to know...

While you're at it, why don't you tell us where you sit before you tell us where you stand... Contractor, wholesaler, engineer, homeowner?

ME

[Deleted User]

Understood Scott...

However, and there's a however in every crowd... At Dans request, and out of respect for his web site, we don't discuss controversial topics like war, religion, politics etc. Besides, if we started discussing THOSE things, it wouldn't be heating help.com. :-) Thank you for understanding that.

As for the glass comfort system, I can understand your not wanting to accept it. It not a normal thang. But I'm not known for doing normal things, so it fits right in to my modus operandi. That said, most electircal systems for heating are 100% efficient as it pertains to direct resistance circuitry. Granted, the coal fired source leaves a lot to be desired, but the fact is, we can't do without electricity, and I can see a day when everything is more nuclear than not, and then it will be efficient and cost effective. If not nuclear in the form that we know it, maybe cold fusion or hydrogen, but still, electricty IS in our future, and if I can see a way to make it more efficient AND comfortable, I'm going to jump on it like white on bread.

Time will tell, but I can tell you from personal experience of not being able to make people comfy in large glazed areas, its a blessing.

Glad to see you are getting some good high efficiency hydronics under your belt. You can't go wrong. As far as marketing yourself, the best suggestion I can make would be to purchase all of Dans books, and read them. Many people came here in your exact condition, and became educated, not only in the making of hydronics, but also in the marketing of yourself and your product, and today are successful hydronic heating contractors. Hang in there, and keep pushing. It will happen in time.

Thanks for the explanation of where you stand.

What part of this fine country do you hale from?

And thanks for contributing to the community that is, The Wall...

ME

scott markle_2

off topic

Mark, thanks for the encouragement.

I'm in N.Y, mid-hudson valley. I'm guilty of getting a bit ridiculous with my condemnations of complacent rich people, But I must say that if the wall was strictly pipes and BTU's it would hardly be the community that it is. One aspect of this site that I really appreciate is the humanity that often surfaces amongst the mechanical discussions. If we separate our concerns and beliefs to much from our work we risk loosing sight of what we are truly working for.

Hug your children!


I'll try and keep my digressions more on topic in the future.