Max glycol

Drew_2

Watch out when your stating % of antifreeze. As it measures in the bucket, Some are 98% PG, some are 70% PG, some are 58%, some are 50% PG and others are even lower.

Glen

Just returned from another -

quick trip to the artic. While there - essentially doing controls and such - I always check Glycol levels & pH. I had at least 5 boilers that were off the scale of my refractometer - which is 75% +. And now I am looking for the info relative to glycol and pumping abilities of circulators. Did I read this in one of Dan's books? Firedragon's? other authors? I will travel north again next month - this time to service the systems I reviewed and adjust down to 50%. But it has spiked my curiosity as to were I saw this info and the engineering criteria. Your help is appreciated.

ALH_4

Glycol

Dow has viscosities and heat capacity info on their website. Generally, there is a substantial hydraulic penalty for concentrations higher than 50%.

That must be one sluggish system.

Glen

thanks

I will have a look.

Weezbo

Glen..\"50 50 for _50 below\"

is an old saying.....however , if you go to Flat Plate they have some pertinent information on the subject....

depending on the depth of cold,.... i know this is far from anything the vigilant salesmen would ever suggest,...buh 60% is not unheard of in the deep cold.

Glen

our travels -

are similar, in that it's flippin" cold in winter (not much sunlight either!) And I have considered 60%, but can't find my reference material re circulator strain. the Dow site was helpful - just incomplete. Most of the Nunavut housing maint centers are well stocked, but following my audit of equipment and service, the major question was why do they blow out so many exp tanks, air reliefs, and other parts with plastic subcomponents? And I have found that most hydronic components have only been tested to 50% - so there are many issues surrounding glycol in the north. Handy stuff to have in your system - when applied correctly. And can you imagine the heating fuel savings if we dropped down to 25% levels. If it weren't for highly subsidized fuel costs ($1.10 liter or so) - efficiency would be on their radar too!

Weezbo

ok so in this regard we tend over the years,

to have gone another route . while indeed 100% at 100 below is tough to justify we have taken another approach based on "Response time" ...and for the most part changed to lower percentages. for the most part allowing the range to go 30 percent. Better heat transfer. in the summer and warm weather you are cycling the circs every few days whether they need it or not... that tends to exercise the system components that way the parts and pieces last longer. the likelihood of no one getting after the home when it gets cold has diminished and coupled with the thought that the potable water lines aint going to like it much either if someone doesn't show up we have reasoned against the old saying for the most part ,...except when it comes to Banks...Banks feel really secure knowing the heating is protected down into the cold... water line fixes are likely to be less costly than the heating system is their thought there.

in "Town" where there are quite a few people at heating at this time of year, many dial %'s in about 12->15 F reasoning that some one will notice ...and someone can get there,...in about 5 hours or so....

Glen

true enough -

but I state numbers as seen in my refractometer.

Glen

but then -

it boils down to risk management. I would be comfortable at 25% - if I were next door - and they do have very good OBM techs in Iqaluit/Cambridge/Yellowknife (all hours away) - and even on site with other organizations - but when the power goes down (often) and its -40 C plus wind chill - what then? Its an interesting delima. Are you going to sign off on the system and call it good?

Unknown

Refractometer,,,

Tells you "freeze point" which was defined to me by a chemist at Utility Chemicals (No Freeze)as that point at which the very first ice crystal forms in the solution. The solution will still flow as a slush but only down to "flow point" (if I remember the term correctly)and the relationship between the two is NOT linear or one to one, there is a curve and a chart to go with it. Try as I might I could not get one of these fabled charts from him nor could/would he tell me where to find one. He just told me I what I needed to know in terms of my application. From what I gather you are concerned with flow point. As stated above, each manufacturer does things a little differently so it pays to stick with the same product. In your case I'd be trying very hard to get ahold of the specific manufacturers chart that plots the relationship between freeze and flow points for their product. The "Protects to -100*" they all plaster on the can refers to burst point. As the stuff get's colder it contracts, which is what protects pipes from bursting. This only takes placedown to a certain temp and once below that point it begins to expand. If the temp continues to drop it can expand enough to start popping stuff.

If all else fails, call the tech support people for the product you are using and have THEM figure out what % you need to flow at your lowest expected temp.

Weezbo

Yes. That rings true for me too,Glen.

When human beings are having just the day by day human being navigational struggles in life ,Fighting the environment always get one on the page that there is indeed a limit to just how resourceful we may be in that fight. Power indeed goes down and many people are unaccustomed as what Can be Done at that time... There are other human type activities that also bring about similar "Situations" as you are not there...How do you know Who did What when?...because of this , in some areas and also in certain applications , you do the most that can be done to protect the safety of the human beings in the home...it is as You Say.....

For the human beings who have definite plans of action during these struggles , there is often that they will weather this one too....

For the most part there are not a large number of unrealistic expectations abounding in the minds of people in the struggle, so i would say that it depends on what you are having to protect.... Things like Expansion fittings are a definite plus on installs on some places that are difficult to respond to and yet have to be gotten back "on-Line" as soon as everyone is safe .... here too is where partial differential reset Shines *~/:)

i tend to like "No Burst" and "Stay Clean" and in residential only in real specific applications do i go with 60% solutions...i dont like doing it. it usually involves plate exchangers to coils. Flat Plate , gives flow rates and information buh let me caution you they dont Make the Solution that is run through the plate....having said that it needs to be said that they are saying this is this etc. buh the experience of just what is what when is not something that is elaborated on ..the circs pump manufacturers generally will have some one liners within the description that are "Heavy" meaning they pack a lot within those words. Just as the Makers of the Anti-freeze tend to have some very salient eye openers in their description of whats what....

quite a few years ago i had some charts and ripp sheets on antifreeze,..if i am not mistaken these charts dialed in numbers to 85% to even move the stuff is an adventure of its own

In the back of the Wirsbo Complete designe manuals they have a chart in the appendix for various pipes and type materials down to 50% solutions... my pet mouse just booked by, turned the corner and slid on his tummy around the corner ) he is so fat these days he is like a Garfield mouse sorry,... {hes cool though}

it is 2:15 a.m. and i have to focus up on a bid ... remember the circulators like having an exercise function or some one to tutn them on every few days...i Would like you to think Taco circs because they don't have the screws to let air crystallize on the non leaking O rings.... wont go much deeper at the moment...

Drew_2

Freeze/Flow charts

Give me a call and I can put together a freeze,flow,burst chart for you.
800-678-6625, Ext. 108

Drew

Glen

feed the mouse -

finish the quote. Go to bed! The winter is too long for insomnia this early! Thanks Weezie! OK - 50/60% it is. I'll be back in Gjoa Haven late January. I'll ask that the glycol barrels be forklifted into a warm warehouse before I get there. It would be like pouring syrup at the sugar plant!