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Cost of Oil

Paul Fredricks_3
Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557
in THE MAIN WALL
Our house is about 2600 sq ft. Last year we burned 642 gallons, heat and H/W. Our house was built in 1928 and there are 4 of us, including a 16 & 17 year old. It has horrible double pane windows that barely keep out the flies, but they are original to the house. The walls have 25 year old blown-in insulation that fills most of the voids. The big saver is the t'stat never goes over 62.

Comments

  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388
    cost of oil

    Oil in my area has jumped $.70 in the past month to $3.499.
    I'm starting to wonder if it makes sense to install a conversion burner for times like these. Gas rates in my area for November were as follows:

    customer charge (fixed) $13.41
    Distribution charge $.3871 (first 150) $.2152 (overage)
    cost of gas adjustment $1.1995 (first 150 only)
    Local dist adjustment charge $.0455 (first 150 only)
    total cost per therm $1.6321 (first 150) $1.4602 (overage)

    How do I equalize therms and BTUs for a rational comparison?
    Thanks.
  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    gallons to Therms, etc.

    1 gallon #2 oil = 140,000 BTU

    1 Therm (about 100 cu ft or 1 ccf) natural gas = 100,000 BTU

    also, since we're on the topic:

    1 gal kerosene = 134,000 BTU (my memory right?)

    1 gal waste vegetable oil/Biodiesel = 120,000 BTU

    1 gal propane/LP = 92,500 BTU

    1 kW-hr electricity = 3,413 BTU

    1 ton hard coal = 26,000,000 BTU

    1 ton wood pellets = about 16,000,000 BTU

    1 cord (128 cu ft, ~4,000-5,000 lb) hardwood = 18,000,000 - 24,000,000 BTU/ cord (watch out for wet/green wood; also cord wood stacked so loose it could house a catfight!)

    so, ignoring slight efficiency differances, 1.4 therms of NG = 1 gallon oil, also: approximately 1.5 gallons LP = 1 gallon oil.

    The question is: do you believe the oil to NG price ratio will remain favorable to NG for the next 3-10 years, or (for the Northeast US anyway) oil will again become favorably priced as it has generally been the past decade or two?
  • Mike D_7
    Mike D_7 Member Posts: 22


    1Mcf = thousand cubic feet, or 10.31 therms
    BTU = British thermal unit = 1/100,000 therm (1 therm=100,000 BTU) (Source: American Gas Assoc.)

    1 gallon of #2 heating oil = 140,000 Btu

    1 gallon oil @ 3.499 = $2.4993 per therm
    or
    Nat Gas @ $1.4602/therm = oil @ 2.44/gal

    Please keep in mind that all energy sources are fungible, i.e. since one can be easily swaped for another, all forms of energy should eventually even out in pricing.

    Even considering that, a gun type gas conversion burner may pay for itself in one heating season.

    Mike D
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Thanks for all the replies; that's very helpful.

    Once installed, can a NG conversion burner be easily swapped out for oil if the price disparity begins favoring oil?

    Is it safe to burn gas in an atmospheric vented tile flue, or do I have to worry about a flue liner?

    Does Buderus permit conversion burners on their oil boilers?
    Thanks.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    That depends...

    On the make, model, and BTU input and existing efficiency of what you have - compared to what you wish for. Most boilers running oil can be converted easily - and safely.

    Getting someone who has done oil to gas conversions in the past is essential however. This is NOT a johnny homeowner task, unless having a cold house in winter is okay at the least; or, everyone dying of asphixiation at the worst.

    Of course the oil company will tell your you're nuts. The gas company will promise you the moon. Somewhere in between lies the truth.

    Remarkably, LP in my area of northern VT is way less than oil. Despite me onkly burning a tad under 300 gallons of oil a year, I have regrets I was not more diligent in local fuel pricing histories - but am pleased as punch I "locked in" with my locall fuel guy @ $2.56/gallon.

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  • zbs
    zbs Member Posts: 1


    Reading post like this always make me sit back and smile at the fact I burn Hard Coal. 6 Ton cost me 1080 to heat from october till end of april. If I used oil it would run me about 3700.
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    One thing you may want to keep in mind is to use your stores of oil before you switch to NG. Todays oil doesnt sit as well as it used to.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • stevenyc_2
    stevenyc_2 Member Posts: 45
    300 gallons!!!

    Ken:

    How is it possible that you are only burning 300 gallons a winter? Is this average for others? Something must be very wrong with my setup!

    I think I filled my 275 gallon tank 5-6 times least year, burning at least 1000 gallons. My boiler isn't too old but it isn't new - maybe 15-20 years old, the house is about 2300 sf, moderately insulated in NYC. I would love to get my numbers closer to your 300 gallons/year especially at the current prices for oil. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

    Steve
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    I smile also!

    I burn about a gallon and a half of chainsaw gas, one new chain a year, some bar oil, Oh lets just say my heating cost per year is about $20.00 - $30.00.

    we already have close to 2 ft of snow on the ground, figuring it will stay til end of april.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Three reasons my oil consumption is so low:

    1). My boiler runs at well OVER 90% efficiency. Since domestic hot water is included in that efficiency, hot water also comes at the same low cost.

    2). My 2,400 S.F. home has an R-value that is way above average. Despite winter temps well below zero, the windows, doors and glass are all among the best made - the walls and ceiling/roof state of the art SIPS (structural insulated panels) and ICF's (insulated concrete forms).

    3). We only have 2.5 people in the house. My wife, me and mother-in-law (two months here, two months at the other kids house).

    BTW, the under 300-gallons is for the entire year, not just the winter.

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  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Smile?

    After buying the $300 saw, the time it takes, the danger of falling, chain saw "accidents" leaving you with nine instead of ten fingers, the space required to store the wood you can no longer park your car in, the polutants you spew out the chimney, the labor in time (had you taken a job at McDonald's for the hours you wasted sawing, splitting, stacking and removing ash from the stove, never mind the rooms furthest from the stove being like a meat locker while those closest providing adequate heat to melt your socks, the skunks living in the wood-pile, the creosote removal/cleaning, not to mention mice, weasels and chipmunks, the multiple five gallon cans of gas, bar oil and 2-cycle, dirt, soot and smoke in the house, cancer resulting from lung issues for the poor devil that has to open the fire door, and lastly: Ever seen a chimney fire?

    Bottom line: I can work at Mickey's for one week, make enough money to pay for all my oil, while you're out there with the axe, the saw, the missing finger and the emissions you spew out the chimney - and still take off in winter to head south - without worrying about who's gonna keep the fire going.

    You still think wood's "cheaper"? If oil goes to $5.00 a gallon, you're still not even close.

    I assume you also ride a horse to work? That too is a lot cheaper...

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  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554


    Hmmm... I buy my wood at 150 per cord... Burn 5-6 cord per winter... Also have oil hydronic. In 2004, the last year that we heated with oil only, we ran slightly over $1600, and that was when heating oil was cheap....

    BTU per BTU, at the rates that I'm paying (150 per cord for wood, 3.09 per gallon for oil), I figure wood is about 50-60% of the price of oil btu for btu, even assuming that my oil boiler is more efficient than it really is and that my woodstove is less efficient than it really is...

    I understand the problems with wood, but I still have a strong back, so I'll be burning wood 'till I'm too old and decrepit to move the stuff around...
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
    oil usage

    Last year my home burned 478 gallons heat and hot water for 3 people. Good windows,Viessmann Vitola, 6" wall r-48 roof. This is in mid Mass much colder than NYC.We use lots of hot water I like long showers. Wouldn't surprise me if 100 gallons of that is HW. So I think Ken's 300g is very achievable as my house could be tighter and I run fairly high water temps as i have very low profile baseboard. Plus my boiler is drastically oversized as it was a good deal,but that's costing me a chunk of that 478 as well. I could have all the free wood I want but agree with Ken not worth it I've got WAY better things to do. Like come here!!!

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  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    And...

    Your chiropractor, orthopedic surgeon, and lung specialist all thank you for helping them live a life of luxory.

    All the animals of the forest also love your providing habitat for them, their offspring and above all, the folks at Echo, Husqy, Jonsared, and bar oil salesmen as well.

    The two year old kid with the third degree burn on his leg from leaning toward the stove isn't too happy, but it's okay. The $500 spent on L.L.Bean down comforters for the bedrooms that resemble meat-lockers comfort-wise also thanks you as does those who underwrite your homeownwer's insurance policy. The premiums I was quoted when they asked if I had a wood burner - or conventional heating system were something to consider too.

    I admit, there is some romance to fire making and keeping one going. Something primal seems to come about, but not having to do any more than set a 'stat once every couple of years, is my idea of being as primal as I want.

    To each his own...

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  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    City Boy Ken...

    well city boy, if you do not know how to use a chainsaw I strong advises you to stay away from such dangerous machines!

    who pollutes more, your heavily refined 300 gallon and all the pollution created to delivery that 300 gallons to your door OR my one (1) cord of wood????

    It a shame you can't understand the enjoyment of being to the woods, and little hard work... rather stay home and play with your TV remote ???

    Oh yea, take the $300.00 chainsaw and divide by the 5 years I've had it? and the 5 more years it will last?

    guess you don't like real Mans toys.....

    your quite the joker!!!!! little whine with your cheeese?

    Creosote: lets talk about that dear ole ken, after over 12 years of burning wood I have collected about an orange sized clump of creosote, so easy to avoid........
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Cheese & whine...

    So you simply release the creosote into the air your kids breath, rather than clean it from the chimney?

    Ever seen what the fresh snow looks like around your chimney base? Think about the partuclate that isn't that heavy, and all that sneezing and coughing your family seems to get each winter...

    Did you want Merlot or a nice Zin with that cheese?

    May I ask what the wood burner costs? How about the special vent system it required too? And lastly, does your homeowner's insurer know you heat with wood?

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  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554


    You get pretty hyped up when you don't like something... System 2000, wood heat, whatever...

    To answer your criticisms: I've done much more damage to my back wrestling boilers and water heaters in and out of the basements of northern vt than I have stacking wood. My house stays perfectly comfortable all over... I use the woodstove to supplement my oil heat, and I have a well-designed hydronic system that'll keep every room in the house as warm as I want it...

    I like that as much of my energy costs as possible support swedish chainsaw makers rather than Saudi terrorists or Venezuelan dictators.

    And finally, in our state, the percentage of forested land has been increasing each year, rather than decreasing, for the past 150 years... So the woodland critters are doing just fine...

    You really get bitter when people disagree with you...
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    may I ask?

    Ken,

    guess you never allow your kids around a dangerously toxic camp fire?

    can I ask what YOU paid for your heating system? and what about the house, what did the house cost? how much pollution did the entire process of building your house introduce into the environment?

    insurance about $10.00 a month for a wood stove, as I said eliminating creosote build up is truely a no brainer.

    I guess your oil burner only puts out roses peddles?

    sorry, most wines gives me headaches...

    Oh, so whats your gripe with horses?
  • Rocky_3
    Rocky_3 Member Posts: 236
    Ken, 300 gallons a year?

    Is that because you have secretly installed a System 2000 boiler for your heat and hot water?

    Sorry, Ken, I just couldn't resist ;)

    Happy heating,
    Rocky
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    you got a bad back Ken

    I bet your back goes out reaching for a big Mac too quickly.

    trouble with lazy fat americans, they do not do ANY remotely heavy work, therefore picking up a piece of firewood "throws their back out"

  • martin
    martin Member Posts: 144
    What Vengence

    I sat back and read this thread and thought keep your mouth shut and dont get involved but I can't. Wood heat is not for everyone. I've heated with wood for 25 yrs. 20 of those years in my present house. I burn about 6 pickup loads a yeat to heat 2000 sq. ft. Ihave 2 rooms that get a little cool about 65 the rest stays about 72. We go out as a family to cut wood takes about 3 hours for 2 loads. My kids don't all have lung cancer I have a air to air heat exchanger.We only cut cull or down trees that need cleaned up anyway. Plus we like the heat,my backup heat is fin-tube with a propane boiler.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I paid...

    about $5,200 for the whole show; HWBB, boiler, oil tank, PEX, copper, indirect, venting, piping, pumps and controls.

    The house may have somewhere near a quarter-mill. That does not include the 13 acres, the other house already here, the knock-dead mountaintop view, the engineered septic or any site work.

    Pollution resulting from my house fabrication? Have no clue. Nothing significant one way or the other.

    So your woody will cost 10 a month in added insurance premiums? If it lasts 20 years your out $2,400 assuming the rate doesn't go up - just for insurance? I hope you never put an axe into your ankle, or get a splinter. You might not be able to write all the expense checks...

    Guess how many homes burn from wood stoves comparted to oil boilers per 100. Ten a month is cheap.

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  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I was thinking of a System 2000 but...

    found the anchor for my 14' fishing boat after all, the S-2000 was undeeded.

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  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    i gotta ya

    beat by about a quarter mil.....

    I don't have time for people who can not live responsible lives: smoke in bed, burn green wood, pick up lawn mower while operating, drive drunk, climb power poles, burn whole christmas tress in fireplaces, plug in 50 appliances to one outlet, put their hands in operating snowblower augers.....

    the list goes on and on.....

    to me the woodstove is the safest heating appliance made.....

    ask mark hunt how many people injured by venting problems with woodstoves compared to oil/gas appliances?
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    OK. Hey Mark Hunt!

    Ever service wood stoves?

    Ever seen a creosote fire in a wood burner-chimney?

    Assuming you work on, install or serviced on a regular basis - both a few wood stoves and a ton of oil/gas heating systems, what percentage of the venting danger sassociated with wood fired vs. oil/gas fired equipment have you seen?

    Not the number per se; but rather the venting problems as a PERCENTAGE of all the installs of BOTH wood and conventional forms you have seen.

    I have seen three homes razed to the ground from badly vented wood stoves. No such tragedies with conventionals since coming here to wood-stove country (the percentage of wood vs. conventional being roughly 4:1 oil/gas to wood burning ratio).

    I heard of a family being killed from CO poisoning down near Burlington about 2 months ago, that one being the only fatality I heard of for conventional.

    Wood stoves are like cats.

    You never notice the perpetual stink in the house if you happen to own one.

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  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557


    Just one big happy family!
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I suspect the two

    teenagers - when and if they ever leave home, could reduce your fuel consumption by 641 gallons!

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  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554


    I was at the bar last night with two co-workers of mine who know ken (I've never met him (that I know of) even though I work for a competitor of his and we cover a lot of the same territory)... They assure me that he's not nearly as abrasive and hostile in person as he is on the internet... They think he's a pretty nice guy... I just thought that was interesting enough to share...
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    They lied!

    I have no friends, and you know how people who hang out at bars are.

    After the third beer, don't trust a word spoken...

    Was the bar heated with a wood stove BTW?

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  • Al Gregory
    Al Gregory Member Posts: 260


    I used about 500 gallons last year. 2500 sq ft house with a 3 Sect WM Gold and a 80 gallon Super Store. I have a Carlin burner with a .60 nozzle at 150 psi. 3 zones all baseboard slant fin #15. Six people showering everyday. The house has 2*6 framing and is well insulated, its actually a modular home that was brought here in 4 pieces.
  • RonWHC
    RonWHC Member Posts: 232
    Ken.

    Thanks for the kudos on the LGB vent damper & higher pump pressure for cold oil problems.

    If you're ever in DC - yell. I'll treat you to the best Carne Asada you ever set tooth to. Think they grill it over mesquite wood. We can throw Margaritas at one another, as we argue over what works best for everyone.

    I think I can get a corner table where DC's Finest won't interfere. Later, we can drag ourselves to the local Jazz Emporium. Or, maybe Bluegrass. My treat. Bet we disagree on that, too. Sound like fun? I'm looking forward to it.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I left an hour ago...

    Should make the second set at the jazz club...

    Save me a decent seat up front.

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  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554


    Nahh... I don't drink at the Long Trail during the winter... too many college kids... I think that's the only place around with a woodstove...
  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554


    But as a side note, the bar I drink at has perhaps the most hilarious baseboard set-up I've ever seen... Small sections of baseboard everywhere, some oriented vertically in order to fit them into odd spaces, with a mess of way too small 1/2" pex connecting it all together and just stapled over and around everything else in its way...
  • Mark Hunt_3
    Mark Hunt_3 Member Posts: 184
    Hmmmmm


    In all honesty, I have very little experience servicing wood burning equipment. I was never asked to which IMHO indicates that A) Owners of wood burning equipment are "generally" not concerned with the combustion quality of the fire, and B) neither are "many" heating pros.

    I used the terms "generally" and "many" so as not to paint with a broad brush. There are of course exceptions. (MAJOR CMA there!)

    During the oil embargo of the 70's, my Dad bought a wood stove and had it ducted into our oil fired, forced air furnace.(I was just a "wet head in waiting" then)
    Knowing what I know now, I realize that my Dad wasted HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of potential BTU's (if not millions). He constantly choked the air to the flame down and allowed the wood to "smolder". Sound familiar?

    JP is 100% correct about seasoned wood vs. green wood. We allowed our wood to season for no less than 12 months AND my Dad was particular as to the type of wood he would use. Hard wood only. To answer JP's query as to the number of venting related injuries caused by wood vs. oil/gas fired appliances, I would have to answer that oil/gas appliance issues outnumber wood fired by far.

    Now there are probably many different reasons for this, but I would say that the main reason is simple numbers. There just aren't as many folks burning wood as there are folks using oil/gas fired equipment, as Ken has stated. Law of averages. Before anyone jumps on me and says, "Come to my neck-o-the-woods", I completely understand that there are areas in the US of A where wood burning is quite popular and some areas where it is the only option.

    Chimney fires are a different story. JP said, "I don't have time for people who can not live responsible lives: smoke in bed, burn green wood,........." and I would add, "Do not maintain combustion appliances and their venting systems regardless of the fuel". If you think that the "average Joe" (or Jane) lacks understanding of his/her oil/gas fired system, what level of understanding can they have about a wood fire? A chimney fire is not easy to extinguish and is usually not even noticed until it is too late to save anything but the basement. No argument that proper maintenance lessens the likelihood of an accident and that rule applies across the board. I have not, however, recall a chimney fire being caused by an oil/gas fired appliance. Not saying it never happens, but it must be a very rare occurrence.

    As far as pollutants, again, burn anything incompletely and you are going to make nasty by-products. A smoldering wood fire makes some nasty stuff. JP and others that have a better than average understanding if what it takes to maintain wood burning equipment will likely never have an issue. I do not think that Ken was aiming his remarks at those folks. I have a tough time convincing myself that the outdoor, wood burning boilers I see around here are running anywhere near the "efficiency" that the purchaser was sold on. Not when there is a smoke plume billowing from the beast. I also wonder what it would be like if everyone in the area did this. I would probably be able to smoke bacon just by leaving it hanging from a tree in my yard.

    I cut, split and stacked 4 full cord of wood this past spring for one reason only. I like having a fire. I do not burn it in my house. Reason being that the fireplace was built by the lowest bidder. EVERY house in my neighborhood that was built by the builder responsible for my home has the same issue. The block and mortar used was junk and the chimneys have gaps between the block. You cannot see this without ripping the sheet rock down. My neighbor nearly lost his home last year because of this. Had nothing to do with the fire or chimney maintenance, he was very diligent with his fireplace. Just bad construction.

    Ken is right about the amount of time one has to commit to wood burning and if you have no issue with that, fine. Again, JP and many others know full well what they are getting into but there are many that visit this forum that do not. I received dozens of calls each year from folks looking to use wood as their primary heat source. 99% of them had not considered ALL that is involved with this and most of them reconsidered when I walked them through it.
    "What will be your wood source?"
    "Will you buy lengths or cut and split?" (What does a cord of split wood go for?)
    "Do you have the equipment to prepare the wood for burning if needed?" (Chainsaw, splitter etc....)
    "Do you want to dedicate the time required to prepare your wood supply for the heating season?"
    "Are you familiar with the proper maintenance procedure required for your equipment?"

    You get the point.

    I just checked my Yellow Pages and I do not see "wood burner service" listed. I know of no company in my area that offers this. A chimney sweep will clean the chimney but they will not touch equipment. You can't throw a rock around here without hitting a oil or gas service tech. That means that around here, the end user better know what they are doing because they are on their own.

    Setting stuff on fire is the easy part. Keeping it safe is a whole different story.

    Mark H






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