venting mains

Mike P_2

I recently replaced my main vents. They are situated at the end of each of my mains on the vertical piping leading to my condensate returns. They are about 4" below the center line of the mains and are only tapped for 1/8" npt. I used standard radiator angled D air vents. Is this OK?? Are the 1/8" connections too small? My old main vents were not venting and the new ones are now spitting water??
With the old main vents and now with the new main vents installed many of my radiators were and are still pumping out a lot of air once the system heats up. I have replaced a few of the air vents with some vari vents and I still have the hissing. Any
suggestions???

mel rowe

venting mains

In the past couple of years I've learned a lot from the Wallees about venting mains on one pipe steam systems. In trying to help a friend with a two pipe system, I noticed a small vent at the end of the main. I was about to recommend replacing with a Gorton No. 2, but thought I should ask here first. Do the venting requirements for a one pipe system applly equally to a two pipe system?

Steamhead (in transit)

Depends

on whether it's 2-pipe air-vent, or Vapor.

Are there traps on the radiators?

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mel rowe

yes, there are traps on the rads.

mel rowe

Still looking for some info before this drops off the list.

Steamhead (in transit)

You need to vent

the dry returns as well as the mains. Sometimes there's an old air-eliminator trap piped into the dry return near the boiler. Other systems used standard main vents.

The steam mains might be vented with cross-over radiator traps, routing the air to the dry return but stopping the steam.

Can you post some pics?

"Steamhead"

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mel rowe

Thanks very much Steamhead. I saw only one of the very slow type vents on the main, with no crossovers to the dry return. The main was two inch pipe, about 65 feet long in total. For this I assume that a Gorton no. 2 would be the best??? The dry return had something at the end of it just before dropping down into the wet return. I had not seen anything like it before, so it may be what you mentioned--an air eliminator trap. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. Another question that occurred to me is how would you know if one of the traps on the rads was not working right?

Dan-N-NY

Main Vents

First time poster but I have been reading and learning for over a year. Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge

I have a two pipe system and am looking at replacing my main vents. Currently there is one vent on each of the returns near the boiler. One is a hoffman 1A ( i beleive) and I am not sure what the other is.

My Question is do you use regular main vents like Gorton #2's even if the vents are on the returns instead of the mains? Should I repipe so that the vents are on the mains?

I have two mains, 2" piping, one is 100' and the other is 65'. All of my radiators get hot but the vents never really stop hissing, so I am assume I could get some effeciency by replacing the vents.

Steamhead (in transit)

For a main that size

you may need two Gorton #2 vents.

Feel the dry return. If it's steam-hot, you have a leaking trap somewhere. Follow the heat to find it- or just go thru and replace the guts in all the traps.

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Steamhead (in transit)

How long are your steam mains

and what pipe size are they? I've used Gorton D vents too, where their capacity matched the mains.

The set return lines may be plugged, causing the vents to spit water. Have a pro come look at them and replace them if needed. Try the Find a Professional page of this site, under Resources at the top of the page.

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Steamhead (in transit)

What variety of 2-pipe system

do you have? Is it an air-vent or Vapor system?

Take some pics of a few radiators with their associated piping and post them here, also the boiler and the piping around the boiler. This will help us ID your system and make recommendations.

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Dan-N-NY

Dan-N-NY

What Type 2-pipe system

Thanks for the quick response

I beleive that it is a Vapor System after reading Dan's "Lost Art..." but I am not certain. Here are the pictures you requested.

I have a mix of new and old style value. All radiators have the same traps (I think that is what they are) on the returns. Most of the Values have been changed out. Out of 13 radiatros I only have 5 of the old style values. I am not sure if the newer values are the orific type or not (that is if they are required)

I had the house inspected when I bought it last year and the inspector said that I may want to have the near boiler (Hartford Loop) checked but he was not expert. He said that is looked like it was not quite right so you may see some issues with that also. I have check this site for a pro in my area and have not had any luck. The heating guys I have spoke with are Knuckleheads when it comes to steam based on what I have seen from them at this point.

I just insulated my mains (2") with 2" pipe insulation this month. I changed my presurtrol main to 1.5 (it was set to 12)and the differential on the cut in to 1. I am looking at getting a vaporstat but just wanted to get the low hanging fruit knocked out this year like insulation and vents.

Thanks again for you response and any further help you can provide.

Dan

Dan-N-NY

What type of Two Pipe System is this

Just wondering if anyone had taken a look at the pictures I post and could tell me what type of system I have.

I really think I have a venting issues and need some advise on where to start.

Thanks

Steamhead (in transit)

You may have unearthed

a previously unknown species of VAPOR!

Those return ells with their extra-long tailpieces look like they might have something inside them, kind of like the Richardson system used. Never heard of "Continental" though.

If the ells don't have anything in them, it's an Orifice system.

In your shot of the old rad shutoff (lever handle) we can see the patent date. Might the manufacturer's name appear on the other side?

You definitely want to make a Vaporstat your next upgrade. This type of system is almost certainly designed to run on a few ounces pressure. A low-pressure gauge should accompany the Vaporstat.

Also, the drips from the mains and dry returns need to be lowered. They're not far enough below the Hartford Loop to have the proper amount of water standing in them. This may result in steam short-circuiting thru the drips and closing the dry return vents.

And of course, if you haven't done so already, add vents to the steam mains and upgrade those on the dry returns. Measure the length and diameter of each steam main and we'll tell you what you need.

"Steamhead"

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Dan-N-NY

Hoping to tune the old beast

Steamhead

Thanks for the response.

Great a previously unknown species. In this case I am not sure that it is good to be different. From what I have read on this site over the past year if anyone can figure this thing out it is you guys. You all seem very knowledgeable and willing to lend your advise. I know that there are a lot of Home Owners like me out there that really appreciate it. Until I started reading at this site I was terrified of this thing. Now I am at least cautiously progressing and beginning to understand it a little more.

To your points outlined in your reply

1. I think there is something in those ells. I have never had one completely out but I did disconnect one last year and look and felt in there (standing on my head) the best I could and it did appear that they were not just straight thru.

2. I have attached a picture of the other side of the older shut-off radiator valves. This is the only one left that is turned this way and the others are against the wall. It appears to read “A LARGE “C” surrounding B&R co.” You see what you think.

3. I am planning to replace the PressurTrol but I guess I did not realize it should be so high on the list. Can you recommend a make and model for the VaporStat and Low Pressure gauge?

4. On the drips being lowered. How low do I take them? As close to the bottom as I can go? How does the rest of the near boiler piping look?

5. Venting

a. What vents should I use to replace the ones on the dry returns
b. My mains are 2” one is 75 ‘and the other is 95’ what should I use for the venting on these (there is nothing on the mains for vents now)?

Steamhead (in transit)

That valve and elbow

look VERY similar to those used on the Richardson Vapor/Vacuum/Pressure system, as illustrated in my 1925 Richardson & Boynton Co. manual. Your system may be a predecessor to the Richardson- it is certainly older than 1925, they stopped making ornate radiators around 1919 or so. You'll find the Richardson system on pages 263-264 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating".

Now to answer your questions:

1. Look at the diagram of the Richardson ell in Lost Art. Are its innards similar to what you saw?

2. We need an expert to help us out here. Note to Gerry Gill- I can't seem to master the Patent Office search system, can you see if your magic will find the CB&R company the patents were assigned to- I would assume this means Continental Brass & something starting with R..... or maybe Richardson & Boynton took them over.....

3. Vaporstat is the Honeywell L408J1009.

Gauges are Marsh:

http://marsh.ooi.net/marsh/Diaphragm_Gagues.htm

or Winters (click on Low Pressure on this page):

http://www.winters.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=154

or Yellow Jacket:

http://www.yellowjacket.com/HVACRProducts.asp?l=6&t=HVACR&c=46

Most supply houses should be able to get these gauges. Note that the 0-30 PSI gauge you now have must remain on the boiler to meet Code. Install the low-pressure gauge on a suitable tee.

4. How low can you go? I'd have them lowered to floor level before teeing them together into a common return at floor level, then up into the Hartford Loop. The original boiler almost certainly had a higher waterline than the present one, so at that time all that piping was below the waterline.

5. Long main: two Gorton #2 vents. Shorter main: one Gorton #2 vent and one Gorton #1 vent. Dry returns: start with one Gorton #1 vent on each. If you can't find Gortons in your area, try www.statesupply.com .

The near-boiler piping is another issue, but first things first....

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Steamhead (in transit)

As usual, Gerry Gill struck gold

not only does it look like he ID'd the company, Continental Brass & Foundries Company of St. Louis, MO, but also the inventor- Joseph Messmer, of Kirkwood, MO which is near St. Louis.

Look again at the pic, "Other Side of Old Valve". If
you look REAL CLOSE, the R looks like it might be an F that wasn't cast quite right. I missed that the first time.

Compounding this is the relationship to the Richardson system, of which we now have more evidence. Patent 1,273,899 (attached) shows a main air vent that is VERY similar to that used on the Richardson and was assigned to Continental Brass & Foundries Company of St. Louis, MO. Look in Lost Art, chapter 15 to see the similarity to the Richardson vent.

It's interesting to note that Mr. Messmer had his own company by 1927. Maybe Continental morphed into Messmer Brass, supplying all or most of their output to Richardson & Boynton the way Trenton Potteries did for Crane? Further research is needed ;-)

Thanks, Gerry- you're the best.

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Dan-N-NY

Does look like a Richardson

You all hit the nail on the head. Sorry for the delay in the reply but I finally got the time and the guts to take one of the returns ells off and take it apart. Coincidently the one I chose did not have the ball in it so I move to another to verify it was supposed to be there. I will have to find something to replace it like a stainless ball bearing (unless you think that would not work).

I took out the ball and put it on a micrometer and it reads .610 the ball was not very symmetrical and there seems to be a lot of play, so I am assuming I could get one .625 (5/8) and it would work just fine. I just figured it wore after so many years. I am planning to check all of the ells to verify that the orifice is not plugged and the ball is present.
I am attaching the pictures I took for you viewing pleasure and funny thing is that the ell has a patent date of 08-14-09 I just could not see it until I took it completely off the radiator and the return.

Given the fact that the Richardson shows a vent on the main (I assume that this is critical to optimum operation and efficiency of the system) and I only have vents on my returns, as soon as warm weather breaks or at least a couple of days of bearable temperatures I will re-pipe the drips and install the manifolds for the vents as you recommended.

Thanks again for your help.

Steamhead (in transit)

Glad to help

let us know how it works out!

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Mike P_2

Main Vents

Steamhead,

What are the set return lines??
Since my posting I have had a plumber stop by. He told me I needed to use Air Eliminators and they must be situated above the main lines??
As I stated originally, I had replaced my main vents with 1/8 npt D rated radiator air valves and they hissed and spit water. (1/8" connection are what my system has)They are situated on my return lines at the end of the 2" mains 4" below center line on the main. Per my plumbers suggestion I nippled into the 1/8" connection and increase the line size to 3/8", connected a 90, a coupling and a 3/8" Gorton #1 air eliminator. Now the eliminator is above the main line. When I turn on my heat and it has been on a while I get the similiar result, hissing and spitting water. Shouldn't the eliminator close once it reaches a certain temp?? I am at a loss at what to do. Is the #1 eliminator the correct size??
Thanks for any help you can provide.

Steamhead (in transit)

That was a typo that I didn't catch

Should have said "wet" return lines. Oops.

The wet returns are the lines that take the condensate from the ends of the steam mains back to the boiler. They run at floor level or slightly higher, and are called "wet" because water normally stands in them. If they plug up, water will back up in the steam mains and cause the vents to spit. I think that's what's happening, and the cure is to replace them.

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