customer changes mind???

Buzz G.

is what I wrote about two wks ago when they spilled a lot of mercury in basement and yard removing old boiler. Mine was also piped wrong going directly to input of boiler. Look at Dan's book. It should have been piped 'up' and then down to boiler to prevent burping the mercury into the boiler. Whoever removes that one should be aware and have something under that pipe at return to catch mercury should it be in there. Just telling what I learned hard way.

Timco

So I give a proposal to a friend, someone who I know for 3 years and have done a previous boiler for. He buys a older home, and first thing gets me on board to put in a new boiler and move some rads. I estimate I have 8 hours in the proposal, on-site visit, boiler p/u & delivery to basement, heatloss, and so on. (He gave me a deposit of 50%) He calls yesterday and says he is weary of high velocity AC and AC guy says go with regular ducting and furnasty type AC, but if he is putting in this type of AC, why not just go with scorch air and axe the boiler & HW rads? More room w/o the rads, etc...I tell him only a fool pulls out a hydronic system in favor of scorched air, but it is his house. He calls me and asks if I will call the supply house monday and arrange for the boiler's return. "I'm sure they will take it back" It has been uncrated and taken down to the basement now. I can't help but feel I had anticipated income of $X coming, and a contract to do the work that would get me that income, and now am owed that income. Am I wrong? First thing he says is "I know you are going to hate me..." My thought is to figure what I have in it, and settle on an 'amount' for the lost income that I was prepared to earn, and IF they take back the boiler (I will be honest to the supplier that it went down stairs and has been uncrated) the boiler return will be 100% his job. Then return the rest. Opinions, please???

Tim

Mitch_5

If you change your mind

after an accountant, lawyer, doctor, auto mechanic, painter
has started do you still get a bill.

Of course.

Mitch S.



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Steamhead (in transit)

You don't need this customer

he hasn't listened to a thing you told him. He could have told the scorched-air pusher he didn't want to heat that way, but noooooo.......Don't waste any more time with him.

Keep the deposit. I assume it more than covers the cost of the boiler. He can try to sell the boiler on ebay.

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tim smith

Been there done that couple times.

Sometimes you have to grit your teeth. Bill them for your time on job so far and some of design. And as long as supplier will take back boiler ( most will ). Move on! Some clients are squirly but they mean well in the final outcome. Other Tim

Leo

If he had

If he had you in there why did he bring the other guy in? He is either a back stabber or did you maybe anticipate something and move too quick yourself?

Leo

Mark Eatherton

Chuck 'em....

I had a subcontractor who pulled this crap on me once. I asked him to install an air handler for cooling. He convinced the customer (multi millionaire) to let him install a furnace instead because it was "cheaper" than an air handler. Customer was no dummy. Said "Why am I installing a hot water heating system?" This was in a rather large shop building with ranch care takers quarters over the top of it. The owner is worth millions. I chastised the subcontractor for trying to save my millionaire customer money in trade for human comfort. I calmly explained to the customer that there was a BIG difference in comfort. He said he didn't want his help to be as comfortable as he was. I still had a boiler in the job, and it was doing the space heating of the garage via RFH, and I hit a happy medium with the subcontractor and forced him to put in an air handler with a hot water coil to utilize the capacity of the boiler..

I credited him back for the cost of the radiators and P,V&F, but pocketed the profit margin for all of the foot work and design work I had on the project. I fired the subcontractor after he finished the job and told him to never darken my pathway again...

I suspect you really don't need this guy for a living, and agree with the others. Keep what money you have to cover your expenses, and tell the customer that it is his responsibility to get rid of the equipment..

Next customer please...

ME

Timco

I don't bang tin, that's why the FA guy was there...

Tim

jim lockard_4

Proposal

Think I would ask him for a statment cancelling any agreement you have, if he failed to do that I would send him one. Guys like this will attempt to drag you in to court 2 years latter with a failure to perform suit. Keep the deposit and move on. Next. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Maine Doug_68

I have \"forced air\"

in my Baltimore place. I am never comfortable even at the mild baltimore temperatures. It is warm while it runs then instantly cold when it shuts off. It is impossible to balance the 3 floors. It is dry. I hate it compared to the radiant floor and panel rads in my Maine brick and granite building.

It is more comfortable in the Maine building at 10 degrees than in the Baltimore building at any temp below 65*.
I have 5 extra panel rads from the install in Maine. They are being reserved for the next Baltimore place.

Let him do the furnace route, he will be reminded of his mistake every time it tries to make him warm!!!

burnerman_2

how bout the idea

one fellow posted the hot water coil y not use the boiler for domestic hot water and a coil for heat and still get a/c and duct work save some of the business 2 cents worth royboy

Weezbo

add in a double wall heat exchanger ...

off the cold and use it as partial heat reduction using cooler water temps through the coil for cooling and dial the radiant down with constant circ to reduce cooling load in summer and the same coil for heating in winter
.

Chas_2

Homeowner Here

Cancellation Notice!!!
That's a great idea concerning the "customer cancelled" notice.
I think the contractor is a better friend to the customer than what the customer deserves. The customer could have come back and told the contractor what he was thinking and asked how it would effect the earlier purchase agreement. But he didn't do that.
The "customer" should cover all costs plus whatever the contractor feels is necessary to make himself whole.
Bruhl

Bruce M

A Few Questions

Did you have a written signed contract with your "friend'? Before you purchased and put equipment on-site you should have it in writing. In your printed contract you should have cancellation terms that are easily understood. Is this house your "friends" house or one that he bought to flip and sell? If he bought it to flip it you can understand that he wanted the cheapest install. Your antenna should go up whenever a "flipper" is involved.

Timco

No written contract, just a written proposal and a check cut for what I asked for. It will be his primary residence. He has tossed out the crate from the boiler, and I told him I planned on being perfectly honest with the supplier, none of this 'it was never uncrated' crap. I also told him yesterday that I would not hate him, but I would have terms for this cancellation that would cover me complete, including the salvage of the rads which are super nice. I will know more in 2-3 hours, thanks for all the advise everyone!

Tim

Dave Stroman

You are lucky you got a down payment, it put you in the drivers seat. I most often do not get one until the job is underway and all the materials are there. I think he owns the boiler. He should pay you to wrestle it out of the basement and take it back. If the supplier will take it back, which they really should not have to, they should charge a hefty restock.

Does this mean I will not be shipping you the cast iron radiators you were wanting?

Dave Stroman, Denver

Brad White

Contract

I am not sure how loosely Utah recognizes contracts, Tim, but most Common Law states (Utah may or may not be one), typically determine a "meeting of the minds". The fact that you had a written proposal given to him and a check from him specific to the transaction might be considered a contract. The elements of and offer made, mutuality and acceptance (his check), performance and consideration are key. (OK, I had almost one freaking year of law school so take it for what it is worth.. but nothing was wasted

I am not sure if your collateral losses (unrealized profits versus your out of pocket time and materials less the retainer check) are recoverable, but they may be deductible. Ask your accountant or tax preparer.

Eager to hear how this turns out.

Bruce M

Not a Geat Idea

Usually not worth your time and effort to pursue a legal remedy. Your legal fees will usually be more than any settlement. In addition, you can end up with negative publicity even if you are blameless.

Brad White

Oh, I agree, Bruce

Absolutely and that was my point, not clearly made, I admit. The legal route cost is far greater than any possible outcome. Just that having some "ammunition" makes settlement lines a lot clearer and eliminates the "misunderstanding" excuses.

Timco

Here's my proposal. The down payment paid for the boiler, and I still have 'a couple thousand' remaining in my pocket. He still wants me to move the WH and provide a new one and move domestic lines with the remainder.

The boiler is his. As it has been uncrated, I do not want to touch it or assume liability for damage removing it / transporting it to the supplier if that is what he wants to do. Supplier has offered half back. I want 'a few hundred' for my estimated labor income, AND payment from the deposit that will cover ALL time involved with preparation for this project at my normal hourly service rate, and I get to salvage the rads which I do want. Nice rads. I then put the remainder towards the other project(s) after signing a new contract. Any thoughts? Sad to see this beauty never fly in this house...

Tim

Timco

Let's just say I will not be needing those. It was on, then off, then on, now off for good...but thanks!

Tim

jp_2

seems like big waste here?

did you try to sit down with him and understand his true fears? seems like enough people here agree the high vel. systems work well if done right?

seems like a big loss only getting 1/2 boiler cost back? kind of makes his furnace cost double? and what about DHW?

its important to understand what customers don't understand. don't let a hack take the upper hand here......

Bruce M

American Radiator

I think I would rather keep that American Radiator boiler running than swithch to a hot air system. Are you in a coal burning area? Did you offer to compare the cost of operation between the two systems? With high energy costs the initial cost of installation is not so important.

Timco

Bottom line is he says he does not have the cash for both, and going FA. He says he agrees on everything I have told him regarding cost to heat and cost to make DHW with that sweet boiler, but is going FA.

Tim

Maine Doug_68

Perhaps he could

donate the boiler to a local womens shelter, kids home or similar non-denominational non-profit and take the tax credit.

scott markle_2

odd fittings

What is that bulbous thing to the left of that old boiler? Looks like something I vaguely remember reading about in one of Dans articles, I think it involved mercury and had something to do with open systems.

Sad to see a good cast iron gravity system bite the dust, for a furnace. What about that new boiler it's unique looking, what's it made of, It burns gas?, what makes it special.

Unknown

Thats a

"Honeywell Heat Generator" you can find out how they worked here.
This is from the library.

Dave

Timco

It's a mestek 200i nat gas boiler.(hydrotherm I believe) Gets to 98% eff with 5:1 turndown. Built in ODR. CI HX with full mod / con benies. Really cool boiler. I drained the system today, and felt really bad about it. Rads were still warm when I killed it. That house will never be a comfortable as it has been for the past 100+ years, that's for sure...I get the rads, though...

Tim

Timco

BIG thanks to Buzz & Dave for the heads up on the heat generator. I would have NEVER guessed mercury. Good to know these things and I will look like the heating GOD for knowing this...Thanks!

Tim

Tom Hopkins

He said he didn't want

his help to be as comfortable as he was?!!

Positively Dickensian!

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Kevin Pulver

I feel your pain

A friend of mine gutted his hot water system a few years ago, and now he has a heat pump. His boiler was only 3 YEARS OLD! It wasn't a mod-con, but still...

His basement got flooded due to heavy rains,I told him a good cleaning and new gas valve would take care of the boiler getting submerged.
Next thing I know, his insurance company had told him they didn't want that dangerous old boiler around, and he went for the heat pump. Trouble is, he lived there long enough to know how good the radiators were. I have never asked him about it since. I don't want to seem like I'm rubbing it in. At least I wasn't involved in any way.
Kevin

Timco

So I am told the rads are outside for me to get, and when I get there, I notice at least 5 broken sections, and the rads have all been broke down into several sections. Some rods are bent, others broken. Now I get to find nipples & gaskets, and re-assemble them as needed. Hope no end pieces are broke...My new contract with him said the rads needed to be removed with "reasonable care". Not sure if this meets that term.

Tim

jp_2

sometimes

those type of things are better if you do them yourself, even if you are not getting paid.

Leo

Reasonable Care

Breaking them down and breaking them is not reasonable care. First you got shafted out of work, now materials although old are damaged. It is going to be interesting to see how much more grief you get before this job is over. Don't mean to sound like a jerk here but it appears this is a dead end job for you.

Good Luck,
Leo

Bruce M

Tim,

Not trying to be controversial but why would you take his word for something when he has clearly demonstrated that he is not a person who keeps his word. You are too nice and too trusting. You need to use a specific written contract. Reasonable care to some is unreasonable care to others. It is too vague a term to have a precise meaning.

Steamhead (in transit)

Tim

this guy is not a good customer, nor a friend. Don't even bother with him any more on either level. Life's too short.

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