Help with \"radiator hammer\"

Steamhead (in transit)

your boiler is "short cycling". That usually drives up fuel usage. Check the "cycles per hour" or the anticipator on your t-stat.

In re: the venting; Steam men better than me not only would add more vents, bigger vents, but would even go so far as to remove the vent altogether and just have an open pipe! Try it! See what happens! If steam comes out, you got bad traps. (Assuming they are dry returns)

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Seth_8

Radiator Hammer help!

Hello,

Since the beginning of the heating system, I have been suffering through a terrible case of radiator hammer that I have never had before. It only occurs when the boiler kicks on.

I have read all the tips and tricks mentioned but they don't apply to my system. My home is about 80 years old. I have a vacuum system, with recessed radiators, no valves and traps. All radiators and traps are fully functional.

I just had a brand new Utica steam boiler installed with new pipes coming out of the boiler and attaching to the old pipes. There are 2 brand new valves on top of two pipes that hiss as the heat comes up.

There is some clanging from the new pipes (I isolated which one - sounds like a chain rattling) but it is mostly coming from within the walls.

My plumber tells me there is nothing to be done about it.

What, if anything can I have done to rectify the situation? Is it a case of steam leaving the boiler at an accelerated rate carrying excess water with it, and thus, contribute to water hammer? Or is it something else that I can recommend a plumber to look at?

I am in need of serious help as I am jolted out of bed periodically at night! Thanks!

Seth_8

Radiator Hammer help!

Hello,

Since the beginning of the heating system, I have been suffering through a terrible case of radiator hammer that I have never had before. It only occurs when the boiler kicks on.

I have read all the tips and tricks mentioned but they don't apply to my system. My home is about 80 years old. I have a vacuum system, with recessed radiators, no valves and traps. All radiators and traps are fully functional.

I just had a brand new Utica steam boiler installed with new pipes coming out of the boiler and attaching to the old pipes. There are 2 brand new valves on top of two pipes that hiss as the heat comes up.

There is some clanging from the new pipes (I isolated which one - sounds like a chain rattling) but it is mostly coming from within the walls.

My plumber tells me there is nothing to be done about it.

What, if anything can I have done to rectify the situation? Is it a case of steam leaving the boiler at an accelerated rate carrying excess water with it, and thus, contribute to water hammer? Or is it something else that I can recommend a plumber to look at?

I can attach photos of anything that you may need in order to get a better picture.

I am in need of serious help as I am jolted out of bed periodically at night! Thanks!

Cosmo_3

Seth, go ahead and take the pics

With pictures it would be easier for the steam experts here to help you.

Make sure to take pics of the return piping coming into the back or side of the boiler as well as the piping coming off the top.

Cosmo

Steamhead (in transit)

Also

take some pics of some of your recessed convectors or radiators, and the piping connections to them. This will help us ID the type of system you have.

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Seth_8

OK guys, here are the images. I have tried to get every angle including my 2 valves in the boiler room next to the boiler. The images of my radiator represent what EVERY radiator in my home looks like. Hope this helps. And thank you for your help!

JohnNY

OMG

Seth,

You've got a problem there.
Open up your owner's manual and show the installing contractor what the boiler piping is supposed to look like.
Then introduce him to steel pipe and threading tools.

I'm being sarcastic, obviously, but that's not a good installation.

I'm sure your problems lie in the new piping, pressure control device and the fact that there is no skim port to get the water clean installed.
There's more, but you'd have to start there.



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Steamhead (in transit)

Seth

It looks like you have a two pipe vapor system that is designed to operate at oz/in2 pressure, not psi. It looks like a Marsh trap on your convectors. Are you sure those traps are working? Do you have vents on any of those convectors? If so, why?

Do you have any other traps or "odd" piping in the basement? Was any of it removed by your plumber? How is air getting out of your dry returns? Is it those Gorton #1s?

And your boiler may need to be cleaned per mfg's instructions. And piped properly, too.



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Seth_8

More info

Traps were fine last year with the old boiler. I am getting heat to all my radiators just fine. I am not certain what a convector is so I don't know what you mean by a vent, sorry. What you see in the pics is what I have. As far as other traps or "odd piping," I have none. Are the Gortons those copper colored things on top of the two pipes? If so, those are the only things that release pressure and they hiss when the boiler kicks on. Those were new when the boiler was installed. Also, what is a skim port?

As far as piping and installation is concerned, my plumber got all permits and it passed inspection with the town inspector upon completetion. I think it looks more like a beer distiller! Outside of the water hammer, the boiler is whisper quiet and I do not hear the heat coming up to heat the house. Whereas with my old boiler I would hear a water sound rushing through the pipes and radiators and the "whooshing" noise of heat being forced out. It is like night and day. There is no noise now and seems very efficient.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge. I wish I could be more helpful.

JohnNY

It passed inspection because it complies with the Building Department's safety standards, not for anything having to do with the function of the system.

Do you have the manual?

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Seth_8

I'll have to get the manual.

I've been doing more research on the site and was reading an excerpt from Dan Holohan's book, A Pocketful of Steam Problems. My problem occurs only when the system first starts, not during the cycle. Based on his writings this can be caused by uninsulated steam pipes which I don't have. Further he talks about dirty water in the glass. During the cycle the water turns black and bounces up and down violently shooting all the way up and then all the way down triggering the low water light to go on a for like a second. When the cycle is over the water turns clear. I have drained the new boiler and even had it cleaned with a solution. But my old boiler was dirty too.

Steamhead (in transit)

Sorry to say

that sometimes "passed inspection" just means a fee was paid, and nothing more. Read your boiler's manual.

Look at the boiler installation manual and compare with what was installed point by point. Use of Copper piping above the water line is not considered professional. Copper below the water line may be OK.

Was the boiler cleaned? That is what a skim tapping is for. Read your boiler's installation manual.

The boiler may be quiet, but throwing "wet steam" up into your system. As Dan says, the problem and the solution are very seldom in the same room.

Yes, the "copper colored things" that hiss are Gorton #1 steam vents. You may need bigger vents, such as Gorton #2. That is how air is getting out of your system. The faster the air gets out, the faster the steam gets in.

Your system was designed to run on 1/2 psi max. A vaporstat is recommended to keep the pressure low.

Your boiler is most likely producing more steam then your old boiler, combine that with traps that have failed open and letting steam in your dry return where it meets condensate, this may also be the source of your water hammer.

Traps don't last 80 years.

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Seth_8

Thanks

Just wanted to say thanks for your help.

I'll look throughout the manual today.

The hammering occurred today at 4:43am and then a couple bangs at 5:00am. It wasn't too bad. The hammering lasted maybe 5 to 7 seconds.

Just wanted to clarify that the hammering isn't an ongoing issue while the boiler is operating, just some banging in the beginning (maybe like 10 to 15 bangs).

Again, I'll check the manual and ask around for another plumber. I used the locater feature on this site and one guy popped up. I've seen his trucks around but don't know if he is any good. But I'll look him up.

Seth_8

UPDATE! FIXED! WITH PICTURES!

Hi guys. I didn't want this thread to die off without bringing it to a happy conclusion.

I found a new plumber in my town, did my homework and had him come to my house and we spoke for a long time.

His 3 workers basically re-piped my entire boiler with steel and cast iron fittings, installed a skim port, cleaned the boiler, skimmed it and cleaned out the pig tail. The workers were excellent. I watched them measure and level and work well together. They busted their humps fastening all the pipes and doing clean solder work as I showed in the one image. It took 12 man hours for the 3 guys to do the job.

The plumber told me that I can keep the copper on the return lines (the messy stuff from the old plumber) since they are below the water level and will last longer then steel which can rust.

He will be back in 3 weeks to re-skim.

We also talked a long time about steam traps in the radiators. He was hesitant about opening them given their age and chances of a problem. First he wanted to see if everything was working well with the re-pipe (which it is). I think down the line, I will have him clean the traps (let me re-coupe financially!)

Everything is fine and the house heats evenly, quietly and nicely. I set up thermometers around the house to gauge the reading and it is consistent. I also installed new weather stripping around my attic door, front door and back door as well as a few other things to save energy. I will be insulating the new piping as well myself.

They also noticed some loose piping and installed clamps to secure them and take the weight off. Can you believe one pipe was resting on my water main and that was the sole support mechanism! I never realized. They hoisted it up about a 3/4" and fastened to the cinder block wall.

BEST OF ALL, NO MORE WATER HAMMERING! AND I HAVE FOUND A NEW PLUMBER

gerry gill

now, thats much better!!!!!!!

keep your new plumber, cause this one knows what he's doing..

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Steamhead (in transit)

That looks like

some good old fashioned plumbing work. Nice!

Now, I would get a low pressure gauge that reads in oz/in2 and install it alongside the the 30psi gauge to see what is REALLY going on in your system.

I might replace that Gorton #1 vent with a Gorton #2 and you should see the pressure you operate go even lower.

Lower pressure = lower operating cost.

Then get a vaporstat.

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Seth_8

Thanks...

I appreciate the positive feedback. I figured I had to redeem myself! Or should I say, redeem my father. He was the one who chose the first plumber. I took care of this myself for him while my folks were on vacation.

Regarding the Gorton #1's; I asked the plumber if they were proper and he said yes. I noticed with the old, improper piping, the Gortons would hiss like a mother! It was so bad, it melted a little groove into the asbestos covering wrap! With the new piping, they barely let out a peep. So I don't think he'll swap out for #2's.

I'll speak to him about a Vaporstat when he comes back. Thanks for the tip.

He left one of his workers to sit and watch the boiler run for about an hour to make sure everything was ok. The poor guy sat there on a bucket, eating his lunch just watching!

The one thing I did notice is that the boiler seems to cycle often. I know this isn't a result of the new piping, but the boiler kicks on for 5 minutes, goes off and 20 minutes later kicks on again for 5 minutes. It seems to repeat this. When he comes back I will mention it. Any idea why a new properly cleaned and piped boiler cycle often?

bill skula

main vent squirts water

my daughter recently purchased a home built in the 1930's. it has a two pipe steam heat system. over the last month a plumber replaced some of the traps on the radiators along with two traps on the mains above the boiler. he also replaced the main vent. the system now heats pretty well but almost every day huge amounts of water spray out of the main vent. in the last two days the automatic feed added 32 gallons of water to the system. we cant find any more vents to replace. the plumber also removed an inverted bell trap located above the boiler.please help

Steamhead (in transit)

Please start a new thread for

your problem. Please post pictures of your system!

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Seth_8

My new plumber came back because of my short cycling...

He did a 1 hour skimming of the boiler and when he was done the water was clean with only trace amounts of oil, but much better than before. Although not a fan of chemicals he said a chemical clean out should do the trick to get most of the residual.

He also noticed a little issue with the copper piping from the old plumber. Something about the water going directly into the boiler. He said it should not be that way and a little copper work would fix that. I can't remember how he said it should go but that it would make him more comfortable to change it.

He is a fan of the Gorton #2's like you guys suggested. However, given how close the vents are to other pipes they won't really fit. How big are they? So he said the Gorton #1's are fine but he'd likes the #2's.

Since we have a 2 pipe system he is a big fan of the Vaporstat like you recommended. He indicated a side effect could be short cycling. Is that true? He said if it were his house he would definitely put one on, jokingly saying it would be at a lower cost to him! He said they are a bit pricey. He said the money is better spent on brand new traps.

He took a look at the thermostat and snipped a jumper which will increase the cycle time. Also it was set for forced hot air (from the factory setting) and not steam.

Hopefully these things will curtail the short cycling.

So all in all, he sounds a lot like you guys regarding how he would set things up. Unfortunately we can't fit the Gorton #2's. We'll follow his advice and deal with the steam traps and pass on the Vaporstat for now. Let us recover financially!

Oh, the one thing he did notice was that there was a little too much gas being fed into the boiler. He hooked up a gauge and took a reading when the boiler fired up. So he dialed it down just a tad to the proper setting.

Thanks again for your help thus far. The plumber was great to talk to and very accommodating with all my questions. It was nice going into the conversation armed with a little knowledge and plenty of research. I can see how you guys love steam heating. It's pretty fascinating especially for a guy like me who is into mechanical stuff. As future work occurs I'll be sure to update.

Steamhead (in transit)

Be careful

This steam stuff is addictive!

It sounds like you got a true steam man to look at your system.

Get a low pressure gauge on your system (with a 1/4" valve to shut it off until you get that vaporstat) to show you what is really needed to heat your system. It can be a real eye-opener. It's one thing to talk theory, and quite another thing to see 4in H20 column pressure on the gauge and all the radiators getting HOT! Whatta rush, man!

Those Gorton #1s...are they on the steam supply side or on the dry return side? The return pipes from the traps on your radiators, how is the air getting out if not from the Gortons?

You can try and put 3 or 4 Gorton #1s on a gang of tees if you don't have enough room to install the #2.

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Tom Hopkins

Here goes...I'll try to explain - images included

LOL, the plumber knows this site and Dan fairly well. He said he's gone out for dinner with a handful of you "nuts" and it was steam talk out the ying yang!!! In fact when my folks came back from vacation I was chatting away with my father about our new piping and all the things we can still do. It got my mother so mad she asked if we can change the subject so she could be included in the conversation!

Wow, a gang of #1's? That's pretty cool. I'll mention it to the plumber. Can we cut down the pipe like 6 inches to accommodate Gorton #2's? Excuse my complete ignorance if not!

My father agreed to the Vaporstat so we will go with one. Can they short cycle a boiler? The plumber said it could.

I simply do not know how the air is getting out from the return pipes on the traps. I'm sorry. Regarding whether the Gorton #1's are on the steam supply side or on the dry return side; I do not know. Again, excuse my ignorance. So what I have done is attached some photos which show the path of the pipes with the Gortons. Maybe this will help? The pipes with the Gortons come together and then T off. One pipe that has the Gorton (after it T's off) travels the perimeter of my boiler room and then escapes into the paneling behind my basement wall leaving the boiler room (see images). The second pipe that has the Gorton (after it T's off) travels alongside my boiler to a faucet. (That is where the plumber re-piped the copper too instead of going directly into my boiler. You can see how the old way was capped off with a copper "plug").

And no, the pipe is NOT resting on the water main! It used to be, but it has been strapped to the wall and sits securely above it.

Last but not least I have attached a photo of my insulation job of the new piping. You know, I can be useful!!

I hope this helps, and as always, thanks for your help.

ORDER OF IMAGES:
Gorton Full Shot,
Gorton Pipes Coming Together,
Pipe T's Off to Faucet,
Pipe that T's Off Continues Along Wall Perimeter,
Pipe Continues Behind Wall,
Insulated Pipes

Daniel_3

A happy story good for light reading!

Steamhead (in transit)

It might be easier just

to install the gang of #1s than lower the pipes to fit the #2s.


The answer to the short cycling question vis-a-vis the vaporstat is...it depends. If your boiler is way over-sized for the radiation attached, than, yes, it will short-cycle.

On a cold day with an undersized boiler, the vaporstat will never cycle.

With a properly sized boiler and the vaporstat set at just above the pressure needed to fill the system with steam... perfection!

The low pressure gauge will show the way.

It is hard for me to see in the photos where the dry returns are to get a sense of your system and how the air is getting out. I beg your forgiveness. I think they are the ones vented by the Gorton #1s.

If that is so, than an upgrade would be to add vents at the ends of the steam mains also. The more vents, the better.

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