Problem with Carrier blower motor assembly

scott w.

The house is air conditioned in the summer and a dehumidifyer sits in the basement and is turned on all summer long.


THe house was built in 1967 so this isn't one of those old creepy dank basements

scott w.

carrier inducer blower motor assmbly going bad every five years

A couple of questions on scorched air. Has anyone had trouble with the blower assembly motor on a Carrier furnace going bad.

Variable speed 95% efficient furnace installed at my Mom's house 11 years ago.

Just before the five year labor warranty expired the blower was making a screach at a certain speed. Blower assembly motor was faulty and was replaced under warranty. Would have cost about 950.00 dollars to replace. Now five and a half years later same thing except no warranty and 1300.00 installed price on parts.

Has any one else experienced this same problem. Seems to me Carrier has some kind of manufacturing problem here they are not fessing up to? Or are they making these motor assemblys to go kaput at 5 year intervals on purpose?

Going to have the complete furnace replaced for a few more thousand dollars instead of repairing and eleven year old problem child.

Thoughts on York, Lennox, Carrier? Are these new 95% efficient furnaces made to be replaced every 10 to twelve years? In general what is the true life span of these puppies?

Any one have any thoughts or experience on which of these companiess are the best long term.

Mitch_4

Try this.

http://www.olsenhvac.com/product_detail.asp?key=156

2 stage, super design, been using them since they came out this year. sweet. Common parts platform. 4 position, compact. No troubles so far. Customers love em, been using Olsen for 15 years.

Mitch

scott w.

olsen

Mitch,

Problem is the two firms I trust to do a good job only handle the makes mentioned above. Thanks anyhoo...

Unknown

Maintenance?

The sound you are describing sounds like a bad bearing. Usually premature bearing failure is a result of letting the unit run with a plugged filter. Filters should be changed regularly with the frequency depending on how long it takes to get dirty. Generally all these units should last at least 15 years and most will survive beyond 20 but 20 is a good age to change them. I'm not aware of any underlying schemes by Carrier to put time limited self destructing motors out there. $1300 sounds pretty high to me, get a few more prices.

scott w.

maintenance

The air cleaner on the furnace was an electronic one that had a hot water valve attached and was cleaned monthly. The water ran through the cleaner until it was clear.

Electronic board went bad, couldn't find a company that would rebuild the board so a new elctronic cleaner was installed. The new cleaner installed bout this time last year uses a paper filter.

It is my understanding the new paper filter is to be changed once a year. Dogone filters cost hundred dollars. Just was changed today and the old one didn't look that dirty.

I don't think maintenanc is an issue in this case.

Tony_23

Look at

I would look at your system as a whole. Something's wrong somewhere, either filtration or return air restrictions.

I've been using the Bryant version of the Carrier furnace you have since '99 with no motor problems at all.

I don't know your market area, but $ 1300 sounds high to me too.

toolman_tim

condensing furnace

new type of variable blower motors are very sensitive to dirty power ie. low voltage . very expensive new tech. price should drop when more are sold.

scott w.

clarification

I beleive it is a bearing in the shaft of the motor that is bad, not the actual motor. When the blower kicks up to a certain speed it starts to make an odd sounding whine that gradually will get worse over time. My understanding its a blower motor assembly is the part that has to be replaced.

Five years ago it started with a small screech which over a few months got louder. Of course five years ago as usual it wouldn't make any noise while the repair guy was standing in front of the furnace. But as the five year warranty on L&P was coming up I insisted the repair man return to figure out what was wrong.

toolman_tim

bad berrings

other than cheap berrings and dirty conditions, could youhave over sized duct work ??? to large return will over load motor.

allan_7

One question, please....

Have you or the service firm checked the duct static pressure? What kind of load are we placing on the motor??
What total external static load on he motor and what is the pressure drop across the evaporator coil, if equipped?

Have you had any limit trips or limit fault code display?

Duct system design may be the real cause of your perceived "premature" motor failure.

It is rather easy to blame the manufacturer, when the real issue is the system in which the product is installed and not the product itself.

My experience with Carrier/Bryant has always been on a positive note....

Unknown

Blower Assembly...

is the entire motor, housing and fan blade. The motor can be swapped out of the existing housing and blade which do not need to be replaced. Someone is too lazy to take apart the assembly, change the motor and put it back together. True on the static pressure issues. In the case of not enough static I have seen motors overheat and burn windings but I have not experienced bearing failure. As far as restricted air flow due to undersized duct I guess that would take out the bearings just like a plugged filter will over time. I believe just taking an amp draw will indicate static problems. If the motor is drawing too many amps under normal operating conditions then the duct sizing comes into question. Another indication of an overheating motor is burnt looking discoloration or melting of the motor label. Get a look at the label on the old motor and see if it looks like it's been cooking in there.

Can you tell us what brand air cleaner it is you have now? $100 air filters sound a little pricey too.

allan_7

Not too sure

about being able to gauge motor loading on a variable speed motor via amp draw.

The motor is designed differently and will ramp up to meet the load up to its rated esp.

scott w.

duct size

House built in 1967 so cold air return sheet metal is nailed to the joists and is 30 wide by 9 deep. Then comes straight down and curves into the Carrier air cleaner. The section coming down from the joist to the air cleaner is 12x24. Air cleaner and 12 x 24 duct installed oct 2006.

Original duct that went to old elecronic air cleaner I beleive was much larger.

This is an approx 2400 sf house.

Carrier furnace is variable speed:

Output on high 93,000
on low 63,000


Input on high 100,000
low 65,000

Yes i know we shouldn't discuss price but any one know where to get a carrier filter GAPCCCAR1625 cheaper that one hundred bucks?

Just went down to get the number off filter and realized I hadn't turned it back when it was replaced today.Pulled off the cover got the number put the cover back on and turned it on and I think its not working now. The blue light that was on earlier today is not lighted.

Unknown

I think...

But I'm not sure, the variable speed motor used 11 years ago would be just a regular multi speed motor and not the true variables we are seeing now. One other thing crossed my mind. An out of balance fan blade will take bearings out too. MAYBE that's why they want to change the whole assembly? Can't be sure from here on that either but it was just a thought I felt I should pass along. Still, $1300, even for a whole assembly, seems like a lot. I'd get a couple more prices before I condemned the whole furnace. If the motor comes out looking overheated duct size is most likely the issue. Then again, closing too many balancing dampers or registers down too much can mimic a sizing problem. I've seen that before too. Lots of variables.

What state are you in?

scott w.

scott w.

bearings

I am in pennsylvania.

I am assuming the motor itself is OK since I have heat coming out of the furnace.

It just started to make the same sound when the motor ramps up to a certain speed as it did five years ago. At certain speeds it makes a sort of screetch and whine.

Assuming this is bearings and was told the whole assembly has to be replaced. Just disgusted the same problem has come back in the same amount of time.

A heat loss calc was done at the time of the original install. I am using one of the reputable firms in the area

Steve Ebels_3

Probably not the motors fault

Probably not Carriers fault either for that matter.
I have some out that are over 8 years old and not a single failure. The replacement motor I bought for stock when I started selling variable speed furnaces is still sitting on the shelf in the shop with a 1999 date code on it.

(knocking on wood here)

Any.....as in ALL VS speed furnace blowers have a fairly restricted range of operation when it comes to static pressure in the duct system. Much more so than a standard direct drive blower does. All the manufacturers use the same motors (GE and Emerson) so it's doubtful that you alone have been the recipient of two lemons.

When I look at a furnace replacement job my primary concern is the duct system even for a standard single speed/stage 90% furnace. I could start a good sized scrap yard with the number of furnaces I replaced due to an inadequate duct system.

Get a company in there that knows how to calculate duct pressure along with a Manual J based heat loss and you'll probably be OK with about any brand including another Carrier.

Unknown

Interesting...

on the VS. I haven't sold any myself but when we do an install we design with the duct calculator. Says a lot about upgrading an old install with a new VS furnace. One obviously now has to take duct size into question in such a case. Anyone know when they started with the true VS in these furnaces? I don't want to say it's a PROBLEM with the new high efficiency stuff but things sure are getting touchy out there. What about the VS furnace that DOESN'T get a regular filter change? I get the feeling we'll be changing a lot more blower motors in the future, and expensive ones at that.

allan_7

So....

where does the .10 come from on the duct calcalator and do you use this as your sizing parameter??

what does e.q. mean??

do you use the same calcalator for flex duct??

does Manual D mean anything to you??

Unknown

I'd have to

ask my duct guy that kind of stuff. I believe he does design to .10, why or where he got it from, I don't know. He probably uses it because that's what he was taught to do when he was learning. All I know is when we look at a job together he whips out the duct calculator and up to this point we've done just fine. Plenty of air, no noise and no burnt motors. Now you start installing motors that are finicky about their operating range and it opens up a whole new can of worms and, honestly, until I read this here I didn't know that it was now an issue. I know quite a bit but I'll be the first to admit I don't know it all. 32 years in the industry and I'm not afraid to say I'm still learning. Wait,I lied, it was '76 when I saw my first refrigeration gauge. But then again, it's almost '08.

scott w.

inducer motor assmbly

Me thinks not erverone is reading some of my later posts correctly. I did leave out one key word.

Does INDUCER MOTOR ASSEMBLY change some of your posts?

As I said before the blower is working and I have heat so I don't think it is the actual blower motor. It is some type of bearing.

The blower makes a high pitch whine when hitting a certain stage as the speed increases at the fan.

I appreciated all comments and want to thank everyone but I think there is a slight possability that some of the posts are off target.

Unknown

I'll tell you one thing...

I sure don't like the new tech support system Carrier has put in place with them "Elevating this to tier two or tier three etc and someone will call you back". If I'm on a roof with a hot/cold customer and can't figure it out I sure as hell don't want to be waiting for someone to call me back. I'm waiting now. Last time I waited all day. I called them because I want some answers on this whole VS thing and the tier one people don't seem to know squat. They ALWAYS kick it upstairs. I finished the call at ~8:10. I'll let you know how long it takes them to call back. It would be VERY helpful if the original poster gave us the model# and serial# of the furnace

scott w.

model #

Here is the model number

58MUP100-20

serial #

3695A01774

Unknown

Thank you!

That was quick! Still waiting and ubfortubately I have to leave soon. I'll keep at it though.

Unknown

Oh well fudge...

LOL...

Here we are discussing the wrong dang thing. Although I still did learn something. The INDUCER motor has a bad bearing and they want $1300 to fix it? Holy &$%*! Yes,I'd be looking for a better price. Why does it fail after 5 years though? That's a good one. MY best guess, moisture. I had one recently that sat in a damp basement unused in a new but unsold house for a couple years. It devloped a habit of not wanting to start. Possibly you need a dehumidifier in your basement during the summer.

Unknown

Still waiting...

I have a new mantra.

I just got a price on your inducer assembly. Dan doesn't like us to discuss price so I won't but I think if you call around you might find a little better deal. I believe that is a MVP not MUP in the M#. Just call around with those numbers and see if you can find a better deal. Maybe I'm too much of a softie but $1300 is a bit up there for my tastes.

Unknown

Hmph...

I'll think on it. Hopefully there'll be a few other ideas rolling through too. Carrier called back at 9:40 and left a message about how they had no answer for me and then recommended the training that's coming here in march. They're making it too hard to get anybody knowledgeable on the phone right away. I mentioned my displeasure to my supplier and he agreed and said it was only getting worse. Oh joy...

toolman_tim

duct size

take a tenperature rise through the furnace. make sure the supply reading isnt to close to the heat exchanger. the name plate will tell what the range should be apox. 45f-70f. to low duct is too big too high the duct workduct is restricting.

toolman_tim

inducer fan

whole new can of worms

Unknown

Just thought I'd add...

The reason the want to change the whole assembly is because it's not much more than the motor alone. Which I found interesting.

Tony_23

tech service

I don't even bother with them. Last time I called some yoyo tried to tell me the circuit board on a 398A was gauging the resistance of the operating limit. I laughed at him and hung up

Can you believe, they won't hire someone to work the counter at the CSD branches unless they have a 4 year degree ? What crap....

Unknown

yea,,,

I got my 4 year degree so I can work behind a parts counter. LOL...

I miss the good old days (what old guy doesn't) Carrier here in CT had "King Rogers". No lie that was his name. Anybody remember King? He really knew his stuff and you culd count on him to get you through the rough spots. Then one day he was gone, and it ain't never been the same. I'm going to go curl up under my desk and cry a while now...