Need Help with my new Burnham Megasteam!!

Brad White_2

did you use TSP? Or just skim off what would float off just by a water trickle?

TSP will do two things: Hold the oil in suspension, (breaking it up as a de-greaser) and raise the pH of the boiler water (toward alkaline).

That is a second point, what is the pH of the water? If it is too high (10 range but I would have to check with Dan's books for the stated numbers), that may be too high and will cause foaming. You want to adjust it down to the 8.0 range either by removing what is causing it or by adding vinegar in moderation. Test first, don't just go out and add vinegar.

When you draw off some of that water to test the pH, put some in a pan and boil it on the stove to see what it does, if it is oily or foamy. A drop of detergent (in that pan, not the boiler) will indicate the presence of oil or not.

As Steamhead said, taking a hose (to a COLD boiler) may be the only way.

NRTDave

Need Help with my new Burnham Megasteam!!

Let me first say that I have really enjoyed all the knowledge and insight available here. From what I learned thus far, I was able to replace the broken main air vents with nice new Hoffman A75's...
Here's my problem: the water gauge keeps filling up with thick brown "dirt" (I don't know whether it contains oil or not). When the burner is off, the thick brown "dirt" sits on top of the water level and is about an inch high. Once the burner kicks in, within 30 seconds, the water level starts to violently surge up and down - while the brown "dirt" seems to expand and fill much of the gauge - inevitably, the water level will drop to the bottom of the gauge and the burner cuts out after being on for only about two minutes (presumably because of the low-water cut off. Thus, it takes forever to warm the house.

First, I tried draining the entire boiler and filling with fresh water. Since then, I have tried skimming the boiler water using the blow-out tapping and have removed and cleaned the glass water gauge several times. When I'm done with the cleaning effort, the water being skimmed is clear and the glass gauge is completely clean. Unfortunatley, when I turn the burner back on, the brown "dirt" always returns once the water gets hot. Actually, it appears to shoot down into the glass gauge from up above. Does this make any sense???

I am stumped. From what I understand it is only oil that can cause a surging water level...Should I use a boil-out chemical/coumpound as part of the skimming procedure? I would really appreciate any thoughts or suggestions!!!!

Thank you,
Mike

Steamhead (in transit)

Sometimes the only way

to clean a steamer is to let it cool down, then flush it out with a hose.

Do not do this when the boiler is hot or you'll crack it!

I don't like using chemicals in steam boilers, since you generally have to flush the chemical out completely and this can be hard to do.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

RE: Megasteam

Part of the challenge of replacing any old steam boiler with a new one is that the new boilers, particularly the Megasteam, now makes steam more efficiently and quicker than the old boiler. Your system has probably had certain amounts of sludge in the pipes and radiators that is now being worked loose by the new boiler. In particular, the pipes that are below the boilers water level or wet returns. We advise installing a provision on the return piping where it connects to the equalizer (Hartford Loop) for a way to flosh out the wet return piping. This would involve a shutoff valve and drain valve. The wet returns are the lowest spot of the system and that is where the sludge from the system collects. As soon as you start making steam you will also begin making condensate. That condensate has to return through that wet return piping and whatever is in those pipes will be brought back into the boiler regardless of whether you just finished changing the boiler water or skimming procedure.

If you can keep the wet return piping clean of sludge and debris then your boiler water should remain clean. This would involve closing the return side valve, connecting a hose to the drain valve and blow down the return piping with the slight pressure that is built up in the system. Do this enough times and those pipes should start to clean up and remain clean. Depending on the condition and amounts of wet return piping and condition of your system piping in general, it may take some time for this scrubbing action to acclimate to the presence of the new boiler. When that happens the water should remain fairly clean on a normal basis.

Along with Steamhead, I am not a proponent of using chemicals either. The mistake many contractors make is to add the chemicals and to leave them in the boiler. This sometimes aggrevates the situation because they get into the steam and start scrubbing the system as well which will lengthen the time that it takes for the system to acclimate to the new boiler. It may take some time to get the system to settle down and multiple skimmings may be neccessary. Eventually things should settle down and you'll better appreciate the new boiler. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Technical Development

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Brad White

Glenn

When you say "no chemicals", do you consider TSP to be in that category versus the bottled varieties from the supply house? I always saw TSP (or the low phosphate substitutes) as being rather benign ways of removing oils. We specify them in water systems too, to remove cutting oils, before we do the next level of chemical cleaning and passivation.

Curious what your thoughts are, if it is possible/practical/efficient to skim a boiler with water alone. Agreed, we do not want to "steam it" and loosen stuff from the old pipes until the boiler runs clear and free of the TSP.

Thanks!

Brad

Unknown

I've done many steamer changeouts over 25 years

And I've been the maintenance person after the fact on most of them. I've never had to use TSP, or any other chemical, even once.

Put me in the "water only" camp.

Noel

Unknown

Brad

We used to have reference to using TSP to initially clean the boiler or "boil it out". Due to more stringent regulations regarding what can or can not be put down drains these days, we removed that verbage.

The problem I have seen with using TSP or other chemicals is that it tends to get left in the system and then you've got bigger problems than what you started with. TSP works fine in removing oils in the boiler itself provided the boiler is only operated to 180°F or so during that boil out process. A total flush is necessary afterwards and we used to recommend a second "boil out" process afterwards with straight water to completely remove the leftover TSP. One more total flush and clean water to the NWL and good things happen. This process takes time to perform and a whole bunch of patience. Problem is that both of those entities seem to be in short supply these days!


Glenn Stanton

Manager of Technical Development

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Unknown

Glenn is exactly right

I'm positive your new Megasteam is working so much more efficently than the boiler it replaced , it broke loose alot of sediment in the return piping .

We use a mild liquid cleaner on new installs . Our method is to dump the cleaner in , fill the boiler with water and let steam with the return isolation valve closed ( so no dirty return water flows back to the new boiler ) . Drain the dirty return water into a bucket till it's clean and steamy . Then skim the boiler , drain the whole system and refill .

Here's a pic of today's steamer . Not a Megasteam , but we're hoping to try one out soon . Total time to skim and purge this one was a liitle over an hour , but some systems can take 4 or more hours till it's clean .

Tom Hopkins

Thanks everyone for all of the responses. I guess I'll probably have to hire someone to install a valve/drain on the return line, in order to get rid of the problem. Sounds like that's my only option. Does it make sense that the dirt seems to drop into the glass gauge from the valve at the top? Is this because the dirt is in the water and gets thrown up into the valve up there? Is it possible that there is just a lot of dirt stuck in the top valve? (wishful thinking perhaps)

Final question: On a scale of 1-10, how bad would it be to just let the boiler operate as is? (meaning when hot, each cycle lasts for about 2 minutes before cutting off) My initial thinking was that this is a problem that must be dealt with - and that is what I'll assume, unless you guys tell me it's not that big a deal and/or it's not worth the expense/effort to rectify the problem.

Thanks again for all your help - happy steaming!

ttekushan_3

Oh, no don't just let it go.

The oil will NEVER leave. I've been called in to deal with heat distribution problems years after a boiler's been installed and the problem has persisted for just that long. I'd never expect it, but some oils can ride the top of that water virtually forever.

I solve it the time consuming way. Supervised surface blowoff. Surface blowoff is not the same as skimming in that the boiler is under full fire, so that the impurities are "blasted" out of the way. It works every time. In industry you'll often see a valved skim port whose function is to blow off the surface impurities while the boiler is steaming.

I really only recommend this process to a homeowner under the following conditions:

1) and automatic water feeder is installed. an autofeeder only allows a controlled amount of cold water to be fed to a hot boiler. Otherwise, a heavy hand on a manual feed valve could be damaging. 2) a suitable and secure feed directly into a floor drain can be made.

For arrangements where there is no skim valve available, you can use a decidedly low-tech but effective method. Use the sight glass assembly itself as the blow down port. Close the lower sight glass feed, remove the drain hex, install a hose barb fitting into the bottom, attach a suitable hose (as short as possible) into a convenient floor drain. Keep the hose straight and aimed into the drain. Fire up the boiler leaving the bottom sight glass service valve closed, the top one open. Over a period of time the oils will blast out that way. And you can see the progress through the site glass. Dry steam will leave no water running down the inside of the sight glass. BTW, the hoses get hot.

This can take hours, but you'll find that the greatest progress is towards the beginning, i.e., the first hour or so. You'll find longer and longer periods of firing before shut down on low water.

Other items you'll need: Lounge chair that you brought inside for the winter; a good book (check you Dan's reading list!); perhaps a colorful beverage, the kind with the little umbrella in it.

And thats it.

-Terry

Jim Franklin

Follow-up to Burnham Megasteam Question - advice appreciated!!

Happy holidays to all!

I am in the process of installing a drain valve to my wet return line in order to clean out the system from dirt/rust....in the meantime I was told by a plumber that I have a larger problem, namely that my new boiler is not level - there is a significant pitch whereby the front of the Megasteam is lower than the rear (Incidently it looks as if most of the weight is bearing on the front).

At the time, the installer said "he did the best he could" and this was nothing to worry about. I would really appreciate an expert's opinion. Should I go through the trouble of having the boiler leveled (a big job since the pipes will have to be re-done)? Could this issue be partially responsible for my water gauge surging/early low-cutoff issues?

I will say that after installing Hoffman main line vents (75's) and 1A's on all my radiators, and a new thermostat, heating in the house overall is much better than before. It's not as if the house is cold - but I do want to make sure my system is functioning as it is supposed to. I very much appreciate any opinions/thoughts.

Thanks again and happy holidays,
Mike in NY

DanHolohan

Ha!

I loved your comment about patience.

Al Corelli_2

Level

We always make a level base for boiler installs. If you start with a level base, the boiler will be level.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

scrook_2

off topic...

Ron, what the heck is the fill (vent?) pipe on that oil tank made of? Not what it looks like I hope!

Unknown

Mike

the Megasteam boiler comes equipped with 4 preinstalled leveling legs that sould have been used to level the boiler before it was piped. Doing so now will probably involve some piping modifications depending on how far out it is.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Technical Development

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

kevin coppinger_4

holy crap....

that is PVC on the vent....at least its a sch 40 90 and not dwv fitting!!!! lol!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

lchmb

rear of boiler

Is the hartford loop connection 2" below the water line? And those leveling leg's make it very easy..;) Thanks Burnham...

Unknown

Yep

I let the powers that be know about the PVC venting . Fairly common thing to see in these parts .