Working 'off the clock'

JoeV_2

> How can you provide service to your customer when <BR>
> you are working for someone else? You are kidding <BR>
> yourself. How can you protect your family's <BR>
> assets without insurance? How will you pay for <BR>
> insurance with parttime work while undercutting <BR>
> going rate? It's like the old saying- do you want <BR>
> good, cheap, or fast? you don't get all three. <BR>
> What always worried me as the legitimate employer <BR>
> was liability. Let's say Joe my lead tech goes to <BR>
> jim homeowners house and something goes wrong. <BR>
> Mr. homeowner calls mr.lawyer and is advised-Joe <BR>
> doesn't have a lot of assets, are you sure he <BR>
> wasn't working for mr. big bucks contractor with <BR>
> the big bucks insurance company when he entered <BR>
> your home? Was that clear to you when you hired <BR>
> him. I can hear it now. Mr lawyer says Mr. big <BR>
> Bucks, did you knowingly allow Joe to use your <BR>
> tools on cash jobs afterhours. Goodbye! <BR>
<BR>

John R. Hall

Feedback needed

I’m looking for people who would be interested in helping me for an article (or articles) I am writing tentatively titled “Working ‘Off the Clock’ – From the Mouths of Techs.” I would like to get feedback on (1) why techs choose to take side jobs, (2) the methods they use to take get side jobs, (3) how they buy their needed equipment, and (4) how they manage to ‘fly under the radar.’

I would promise complete anonymity for everyone who helps me, whether they are current or former techs – guaranteed. I am not doing this to expose anyone, just to help contractors get a better understanding of why their techs work ‘off the clock’ and what the contractors might do to lessen these occurrences – either by offering better working conditions, career path, etc. The objective is to improve the working conditions of techs and strengthen their relationships with their employers.

If you are interested, please send me your feedback to the four points I raised in the first paragraph. Your replies by December 12th would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me at johnhall@achrnews.com, use the contact box at www.joemaintenance.com, or fax me at 248-786-1390.

Thanks – and Happy Holidays!

oil-2-4-6-gas

i'll answer you on here #1 ---Why ---speaking for myself -i have 3 kids ,house and 1 income -i need to feed the family,keep up on the house,car-- put some money away for college funding --take care of teeth etc.. --i'm not talking unnecessary expenses i'm talking basic things here -With the current rise in expenses for EVERYThing sidejobs are a must
#2 methods ---usually word of mouth,talking to customers at supply houses when they have a question the counter guys don't know about--i'm not actively seeking sidejobs out but when the opportunity arrizes -------#3 i buy equipment at the same supply houses as my company -i have my account -and i trade off overtime -or pay the balance in cash ( i have known the owner for a long time and this works for both of us) --OH yeah he knows i do sidework--BUT we are a commercial company and i do residential sidejobs ,I WILL not do commercial sidejobs #4 I don't fly under the radar in fact i have a GPS unit on the van and the printout is looked at every-other week -----------------anyway to sum up the whole question of sidejobs WHY __because we don't make enough money --very simple

Keith_24

sidework

Techs work sidejobs for the same reason contractors are in business - to make a profit. You're framing your post as if people who do night jobs are drug addicts. My boss knows full well that I do sidework and he lets me take tools if I ask. I've even loaned him a few auto tools. . . but I never thought it was my business to ask him what he was doing with them.

John R. Hall

Keith

I'm being very objective about the story -- sorry if you feel I am framing it wrong. The News ran a story last year from the contractor's point of view and now I want the tech's point of view to balance out our reporting.

burnerman_2

side jobs

i on the other hand will do very limited side jobs my church my brother and close friends most folks who ask u to do it on the side want to save money the first time something happens and no fault of your own and u r sued side jobs r not worth it i am not overpaid but try to get letgetimite ovrtime where i work not tryin to ruffle feathers just my point of view royboy

lee_7

like the others have said, most techs that do "side work" do it to have extra cash for whatever reason. My family has a third generation "side business" in home improvements that as each generation takes over, something new is added to help our customers. mine was HVAC. My business is totally seperate from my day job, own tools, truck, and full insurance. I pay taxes on cash in. And most important, my customers love the fact that if something happens in evening and weekend, they are not getting some tech who is not happy being there and having to pay extra for off hour service.

And yes, my day time boss knows about my business. I have made it very clear that I have no interest in his customers. I have enough right now to keep me very, very, busy.

I take offence to when some contractors talk trash about techs that take on side work. Yes, some "fly under the radar", but some of us do not. I purchase most equipment from the same places as you do. I don't use my boss's accounts, as I have my own. It doesn't take much to open accounts anyway.

Just my opinion. If I offended anyone, that was not my purpose.

Lee
Proud owner of "side Business"
3 Lees' Home Improvements
Third Generation of Quality Service

JoeV_2

I agree with

...Burner man. I'll help out a friend or neighbor in a pinch. I'll fix a broken wire or a leaky pipe or with anything within my level of competence; but I won't run wiring or replumb his house.

I have a reputation of turning down side jobs so folks stopped asking. I have learned the hard way that a lot of times the side job developes a lifetime warranty and the job never ends or they don't like my work because it didn't meet their expectations (which they failed to describe) and trash my reputation with other neighbors or even worse, they feel that I work for them! and they think they can call me at all hours of the day for anything they need.

I could use the extra cash-I really could but I need the sleep more.

[Deleted User]

The reason that side jobs are available is that people are looking to save money. I just lost a job today because a friend of the uncle is going to Home Depot to buy the boiler for them. He will be doing it on the side for them. Oh well. When oil is at $3 a gallon, they're going to get a boiler based on old technology. There is very little control on the parts supply end of things to prohibit this. And people think they can get something for nothing. The guy most likely has no license, insurance, won't pull a permit, and will most likely do a 'cut n' slide' leaving the old zone valves, feeder, expansion tank and valves and omit a low water cutoff. I could do the same thing except I offer a 1 year parts and labor warranty and I'm not going to piece meal this thing together over the course of the next year. I wrote an email to the customer very politely telling her that when the job is done, I'll come out and inspect it and perform a combustion test - for a fee of course. I'm really just interested in seeing the job. I don't condemn someone that runs a legitimate side business as long as their boss knows and they're paying their fair share of things. Can't wait to read the article, John.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mitch_4

When I first started

THe company I was employed by had rules about that. You could do "side" work for your family ONLY. use the truck, tools, even the account if you needed. Prior approval required. Otherwise, any side job was grounds for termination, soliciting side jobs while on a service call was termination and a lawsuit. Side jobs for family was ok by the owner as a perk to your family, but other than was announcing that the company "overcharged" (they didn't) and was not tolerated.

Was a good policy.

Side jobs that are legit (like the poster that does resi work while employed bu comm co. has tools and insurance, gets permits etc) are ok if run in a business like way, but too many still undercut companies that have the overhead of shops, unless they charge a similar rate and not
"$500 for me and everything else at cost". or the "we charge "X", but I can come back tonight and do it for 1/2 that cash" will kill a legit company, and put that guy out of work because he is stealing the revenue eeded by the company.

I am a one man, and charge as much as larger companies in my area. Better quality control for me, and my customers, and by going same rate, I get more profit, and more room to play.

Side work can really harm the industry IMHO by appealing to the "WALMART" shopper (a lower price exists) Hey, many times you get what you pay for.

burnerman_2

for examlple

like someone said if u help out it's yours a co-worker knew a family lived 35 miles away needed a new or good used burner well a miller furnace i took a day of my time (he wanted me to do it all free they were poor and needed it ok i bit a month a later there was a problem with MY furnace so i had to run over and check it out low on oil mmm then a week later something else on a sun they could not wait on me (good) so they called another co. said the trouble was i did not put in a draft regulator on thier trailer furnace mmm ok royboy

jim lockard_4

mooning

John- I have always felt that if one wished to engage in private practice that was there own business. It is quite the American way for one to use his skills, his knowledge, and his experience to benefit his future.
On the subject of insurance, licensing, taxes and all the other stuff that burden falls on the moonlighter. Just because one works for a company 8 hours a day does not give that company the right to control his life.
A question for others? If an employee of yours was performing independent side work and you caught him and fired him for it, would he have a legitimate cause to sue you? Jim Lockard

Jim Bennett

Amen ...

Burnerman and joeV.

I have been more than 25 years with my current job. I learned very early that "side jobs" were often a huge PITA.

Of course we have a good customer base (commercial) and I can work pretty much all the overtime I want.

I also help family or a neighbor in a pinch, but the rest I tell "You can't afford my spare time."

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

seems like

it's for fun-money, party or toys or, on a more serious note, testing the waters to see if going-it-alone is something worth doing.

Risk & reward. The moonlighter risks not having insurance to cover his/her ****-sets, but sees a financial reward that's very tempting. After all, charging less than the "going rate" without the overhead looks mighty rewarding. Gambling with fate and normally winning.

Procurement of materials is often done on 'company time', which equals theft. The mind is naturally devoted to the after-hours moonlighting work, which hurts performance during the day-job hours.

Homeowners are drawn to the percieved cost savings & they too are playing in the risk/reward pool where no lifeguards are on duty.

We've all been-there done-that. Honorable employees wouldn't ever 'cheat' by stealing work while side-jobbing to a customer of their employer. They all get approached by customers. Oddly enough, I occasionally am asked if I'll come back 'after hours' to work on-the-side!

Work on-the-side for a customer of your employer & you've effectively become a competitor. You want to compete? Fine, it's officially official - you are now free to be in business for yourself - effective immediately.

Once had a guy who was a side-jobber that placed an ad in the paper for 24-hour emergency service. Only problem was, eight of those hours were being paid by me for our customers' service. As Emeril would have said:"bang, you're in business - right now!" He went bankrupt two years later.

Being a moonlighter is easy. Being a legit business is tough.

troy_8

Moonlighting

How can you provide service to your customer when you are working for someone else? You are kidding yourself. How can you protect your family's assets without insurance? How will you pay for insurance with parttime work while undercutting going rate? It's like the old saying- do you want good, cheap, or fast? you don't get all three. What always worried me as the legitimate employer was liability. Let's say Joe my lead tech goes to jim homeowners house and something goes wrong. Mr. homeowner calls mr.lawyer and is advised-Joe doesn't have a lot of assets, are you sure he wasn't working for mr. big bucks contractor with the big bucks insurance company when he entered your home? Was that clear to you when you hired him. I can hear it now. Mr lawyer says Mr. big Bucks, did you knowingly allow Joe to use your tools on cash jobs afterhours. Goodbye!

Leo

In the early days

In the early days I did light side work. I was under paid (left them for a decent wage) and did it for the money. I didn't solicit work it found me. I never fished in the bosse's pond. I bought my own materials. Today I am paid at the upper end of the scale for my area, because of liability I only do my parents or my sister's house. Like others have said it is known I refuse so fewer ask now. I wasn't cheap, I always work the same way so I won't cheapen it. I did find the source of a guys CO problem while on a side job, it was from the wood stove, I do oil.

Leo

John R. Hall

Green light

The News plans to break some new ground by using anonymous resources for this article. So please send me some more examples of why you feel it is important to bypass the boss and take side jobs (offline e-mails by 12/24 please).

[Deleted User]

Moon lighting..

I seriously doubt that there are many people here who HAVEN'T moonlighted at one point in time or another. I know I did. I did so with the permission of my employer (dad). He actually encouraged me to persue another trade at night, that trade being hot water heating. I worked as a plumber during the day, and did hot water heating installs at night. However, I NEVER double dipped.

I had a former employee who had set up his own business prior to coming to work for us, and continued doing business with his other business DURING THE DAY. Double dipping...

I think it comes down to a matter of ethical behaviors. We as employers can't tell our employees what to do with their off time. So long as it doesn't conflict with the business at hand, and they are not double dipping, I have no issues with side jobs. If I find that an employee is double dipping, or that we are bidding against each other, they will soon become an EX-employee.

BTW, after the other employee became an EX employee, and failed, one of his former clients came back to me and demanded that we come out and finish a job for which she had already paid for (to the EX employee), and the former employee had disappeared with her money. I wished her the best of luck in her endeavors, and hung up... Tough love.

I have also heard of some nightmare stories whereby the moonlighters work failed and caused the customer sever monetary damage, and they sued the moonlighter into oblivion...

ME

SVDW

Working in this industry I am constantly approached for side job work or referrals. Most of these people are too cheap to hire a professional & don't understand what is required to do the job. I usually refer them to a good contractor & forget about it. I won't even do work for friends or family anymore. I'm not insured or licensed & do not want the liability. Even if the homeowner doesn't sue you their insurance carrier may after paying the claim. I was injured at a friend's house (cut requiring stitches) & my insurance company tried to sue his homeowner's insurance to reimburse the costs. I refused to cooperate & it was dropped but they probably would have pursued it if it was a major claim. I would think long & hard before working for strangers on a cash basis. If they're not happy & blow you into the boss or the IRS... I don't think many claim the income & that's a whole new thread by itself.

Rich Kontny_3

Funny

How this practice is justified. Following rules cafeteria style!

Moonlighters want a good wage,benefits,pension packages and all the insurances from their employer. At the same time they somehow can justify doing sidework for cash without paying taxes.

This is nothing short of breaking the rules gentlemen and it is a very serious problem to the industry.

Simple question: Why not go out on your own and compete fairly???