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constructing a false water lines

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is to submerge all the places where drips tie into the main wet return. If this is done there will be no way steam can enter the return and bang. And you'll probably be able to take out some F&T traps- unless this is a Vapor system with a non-pressurized return.

If that leaves you with a less-than-ideal A dimension, install a Vaporstat and vent the heck out of the system as Jamie stated.

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  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,112
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    constructing a false water line

    this will be a first ,the biggest promblem is determing the old boilers water line and what is the mimuin safe distance below my lowest carring steam line in the system?Another promblem is that there are return lines that run through garages which are very close to the hight on my lowest carring steam main in the boiler room probalby less then 20 inches .On another note at how much water hiegt do i really need to prevent one mains drip from blowing through steam and migrating into and up another steam end of the main drip?hope thease question and the way i have explained it are understandable,The worst part is i never seen the original boiler and there's been may hacks with some stranger then views on how to fix and all have lead to flooded mains ,the return work i have now at least has the mains draining instead of being flooded and i have gotten most if not all the rads to stop spitting water now it 's just the hammer in the conbination wet dry returns and the fact that some of the end of the main drips have no water in then and of course the autoi feed is shut off due to the fact the boiler was flooding but now after the removal of some f and t it doesn't flood as bad but the auto feed is just doing waht it should and what the system is trying to do which is my guess cover those dry retuens which used to be wet ,thanks for any input and assitance peace and good luck clammy RDEUZA@aol.com feel free to contact me at my e mail if you wish thanks again
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Jim Pompetti
    Jim Pompetti Member Posts: 552
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    Clammy,

    We have built F.W.L in the past and they do work well! You just have to treat the F.W.L like the hartford loop where you tie back into the new boiler. Meaning you must use a street L or a close nipple. The twenty inches won't be that bad if you run the system with LOW pressure. You'll have to use a Vapor stat & that dimension might be fine.

    If you have to do wet-return work it might be easier for you to just drop all the wet-returns to the floor and not even worry about a F.W.L.

    Just my 2 cents & I hope it helps,

    Jamie (just uses Big's account)
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,112
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    some facts

    Thanks Jamie for the responce ,i really can't lower any of the existing return because there on the floor in the garages which are about 3 ft above the water line ,so a false water line is the cure in my mind except there's alot more issues then that on this botched job ,the boiler is a burnham 5011b gas steamer i believe is over sized by about 150 to 175 btu and to make matters worse after some math i can up with a exiting velocity of about31.66fps for the 2 3 inch riser into a 4 inch header and by fiquring of velocity using the header size i came up with 36.76 fps so those numbers are not a good thing to me being i always size my headers for a exiting velocity of below 15 perferrable around 10 to 14 works awesome in my experence,that being stated the header correction in my eyes would be increasing the boiler risers from 3 to 4 would give me a exiting velocity of 18.38 and increasing the header from 4 to 6 which would lower the velocity in the header to 16.19 which i think would be a vast improvement from the original exiting the boiler of 31.66 ,i belive alot of the condensate in the main and vent spitting would calm down and the false water line would cure the hortizontal condensate returns from being exposed to steam and hammering like no tommorow .But i'm at the point of determining what height and what size i would asume a 3 inch false water line would be the correct line with a full 3 equilizer ,Jamie thanks for the responce some times we all can use a fresh set of eyes and mind to help the though process and this job has alot going wrong just out of the gate and as it seems all other so called pro's split the scene of the crime and if ya know me i love a challenge and the fixing things the way they should be ,thanks again hoping to get to the bottom of this bandaid soon peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,112
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    thanks steamhead and jamie !

    Just one more thought from the true pro's what's your take on the exiting velocity and the existing riser and header dimensions i myself feel there way to small and that the boiler is producing wet steam as for the covering all the drips ,i'm a little worried about comig to close to the lowest existing steam main which would be about maybe 24 inches and if i where to install a vaporstat how much water covering of the drips would be suffecient to ensure that steam does not get into those wet returns ,steamhead i will be contacting burmham about changhing the orifices in the gas assemble and after giving it all my thoughts i believe they really only needed about 550,btu to heat the place and that fiqure i came up with by an estimated squar footage of the building times 50 btu per square ft ,but even with a false water line installed i still have some concerns about a unerground return which was 2 inch that was for reasons of being unable to completely replaced had 1 1/2 copper sent through it ,i feel with the wet steam the header is producing that it size cannot handle all the condensate wanting to return to the boiler,it's been a while since i have seen a system this screwed up but the origianl building owners did not do any return maintance (like flushing them out ever)the new land lord from the looks of it has been slowly fixing things that aside he's got the basementand grounds perfectly clean and seems to wnat to keep the place in good shape ,i just feel bad that he has lost alot of faith in the locals as for those who say there steam guys and really don't have a clue and are just there to collect the check ,i myself run toward promblems not away,again thanks for your input of knoweledge which i truely respect and for our host who taught us all something espically myself Thanks Dan You ROCK Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Steamhead (in transit)
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    The drips

    were covered before, and the system worked. So it should work now. Also, when you stop the steam from getting into the returns, the boiler won't have to make as much steam or move it so quickly!

    Get the steam velocity as low as you can. I like to make the header one size larger than the minimum specified- this will lower the velocity and let the steam expand a bit before entering the mains.

    Get the EDR count before you change the firing rate.

    Take pictures!

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  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,112
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    waiting for edr

    thanks Frank(steamhead ) well it doesn't work none of the drips are covered at all and there's hammering ,at one time i would guess over 3 years ago they where covered but my concern is how much water to cover and provide a seal so steam won,t blow through and i'll start taking some pics except tommorow i'll break the news to the owner and tell him my outline and suggestion for correction but i'll tell'em sitting down so he don't fall down and yet still tell him he has some return piping to correct also ,i guess when one mistake leads to another they often cost some big coin ,6 inch header,3 inch equilizer ,3inch hartford loop and a big 3 inch false water line also vapor stat and of course alot of skimming and re piping of returns with some tee and plugs for future service,i will say that i have not seen a messed up job like this in many years espically for the building size it is a crying shame and a true showing of why in my area there's more profit ters then true artisain doing work every body does everything except fix what they install or admit they where wrong or are clueless which is the real deal ,around here just about everybody 3/4 a con artist and then i come along give them a real price i they say i'm nuts but in over 20 years of doing this i have yet to do anything close to the mess these guys calling them selfes pro are doing espically when it concerns steam ther all just about the money and all there toys ,thanks frank at least i can say i know one pro out there namely you thanks again peace and good luck clammy RDEUZA@aol.com
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,112
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    no edr

    Sorry fellows no edr just the enclosure size i know i know like getting nothing ,but there vast room for improvements ,i have a vaporstat on order and i'll be stacking up some vets and dropping down some more drip returns below the water line discussed a new properly sized header and false water line with the landlord he's still a little unable to grasp the whole picture but there's other corrections that are need to be done like replacing 60 year old returns and other wacky super in tenant stuff ,but unless a vapor stat can achieve small mircales there's some piping in the future and i did not leave that to discussion ,after another 1/2 day cycling and digging futher here's some more info ,there mostly are parrell flow mains going into drips but there are about 4 or 5 counter flow main that then split and do perimeter runs supply rads ,a real hard fiqure but i believe i have it perspective but can always use a fresh view ,the removal of 2 traps and re connection of a steam main drip seems to be a step in the right direction a off the top of the skull cap header and false water line price kinda through the owner for a loop but it was not a braass tacks price and as all things go everything in life is a feeling out process thanks jamie and steam head for your very welcomed advice i'll keep you posted peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
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