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Adjusting Oil Burner Flame by Eye

Stephen C.
Stephen C. Member Posts: 60
in THE MAIN WALL
I am thinking about calling but unsure whether it would improve my odds.It seems high turnover is a problem. This guy is leaving in two weeks to set up his own business to undercut the existing companies. :(

I try to have an annual service done by this company but the quality of what I have received over the years leaves me unenthusiastic about scheduling it. Every year a different tech who has also worked at several other local companies. I do not want to shop around on price, I would rather have thoroughness and correct service that I have confidence in.

The europeans say that a fish rots from the head. Maybe the case here is trouble from the top.
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Comments

  • Stephen C.
    Stephen C. Member Posts: 60


    Furnace stopped working , called for service ,
    tech changed transformer , adjusted flame by eye and out the door he went.

    Is this the correct way to do this?

    Should a combustion analysis be done after any adjustment?

    Thanks
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    "Should a combustion analysis be done after any adjustment?"

    You are correct Sir!

    Find a new company, preferably one with digital instruments.

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  • radioconnection_2
    radioconnection_2 Member Posts: 70
    by eye??

    Impossible to measure CO, CO2, O or smoke by eye. No combustion test, no smoke test, no stack temp reading = hack service. With oil prices as they are, you want that unit running efficiently and tuned so it is stable.

    My opinion as a home owner.
  • Stephen C.
    Stephen C. Member Posts: 60


    I thought as much!

    Find a new company. I wish. I think the local companies are just rotating the hacks amongst themselves.

    Digital analyser? Gee, those things are expensive $ XXXX.XX Cdn.

    What is the best way to find the non-hacks locally?

    Interview them at the door? Check their tool kit?
    Give them a written test? I want to have my furnace done annually but a cursory 'service' does not suffice.

    How do I find the right one?
  • Stephen C.
    Stephen C. Member Posts: 60


    Seems reasonable. Thanks.
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    The best way to find a good tech is the find a professional section of this site under the resources tab. Short of that,.. Ask your friends and neighbors.

    What area of Canada do you live in?

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  • Stephen C.
    Stephen C. Member Posts: 60


    FAP gave me someone 75 miles away. Bit of a stretch.

    Friends and neighbors. That is how I started. Problem is most people do not know what they are supposed to get and certainly do not get what they pay for.

    An hour and a half north east of Toronto.
  • radioconnection_2
    radioconnection_2 Member Posts: 70
    analyzer

    Any old timer worth his salt will have a least a good wet kit to do the setup. Experience, patience and training can beat a kid with an electronic analyzer who is in a rush. Most of those techs working for oil companies are under the gun time wise... so many service calls an hour; and a lot of the service costs are "subsidized" for customers. Service suffers. Problem exists here too.

    IMHO.

    Pete
  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,337
    Stephen,

    have you called the company back and requested proper service? It is possible the technician should have done what you are asking.

    Worth the call and you might find the company itself is ok.

    Jack
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76


    Combustion analyzer is the way to go for a service tech and these newer oil burners with out a doubt. But Alot of old timers can adjust a flame to almost a tee. Had a guy once adjust buner by eye and then we went behind with instruments and i have to say he was real close to all the parameters, And i would'nt call this guy a hack he knew more about oil burners than any one i ever knew. He had been doing it for 30 plus years. Its a shame to say it but most oil companies that go out on a no heat call at midnight are not gonna start setting up the burner, That does'nt make them a hack it just means it was twelve at night. Yes on a standard service call you definitly should. But somestimes you have do what you gotta do to get the customer heat asap.
  • Stephen C.
    Stephen C. Member Posts: 60


    Noted but this was 10:30 AM today and a slow day at that.

    He was not an old-timer and I agree but testing always confirms what one already knows or guesses to be true.

  • Bernie Riddle_2
    Bernie Riddle_2 Member Posts: 178
    Anyone seen or try this?

    I have been at my friends house the last 3 years he has had his burner serviced and all 3 times he had a tech who set his burner up by taking an ohm meter to the cad cell. After 3 years of seeing this and raising oil costs I had him call another tech for a combustion test. Tech came with a new digital testo and the burner was dead on.. Anyone ever hear about this?
  • radioconnection_2
    radioconnection_2 Member Posts: 70
    Lanthier scale

    I think is called the "Lanthier scale".. I've read how it is done.

    Pete

    http://www.fueloilnews.com/uploads/features/2006/0610_feature3.asp

    edit: here is the link to the article explaining the principle behind it.

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Used to be a common debate,

    with alot of the old guys on old equipment. They would say; "I`ll set it-up by eye, then you check-it with your fancy analyzer" (wet kit).
    Some were close,,some, were well,,,in those days 8% CO2 was about the best you could get.
    In most(if not all), newer units a person can`t even see the flame so an analyzer is the only way to go.
    As radioconnection says, a good "wet" kit, and a good tech(who knows how to use-it), can produce great results, regardless of 2-4K digitals.

    Dave
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    Most techs I see around here that even know what a wet kit is, couldnt tell you either what the solution inside their CO2 tester is, or how to know when to change it.

    One of the companies that I subcontract for doesnt even suppy their technicians with a wet kit. I know one of their techs when out and bought his own so at least he wouldnt be breaking the law.

    My father taught me the eye method, and I do the set by eye, then see what my testo says method as well, but for me the excess air and CO measurements are a valuable addition over the wet kit.

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  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    You interview

    First you call the company and ask, DO YOU USE COMBUSTION TESTING EQUIPMENT. You ask how long a tune up takes and what is done. If the answers satisfy you, you tell the tech as he comes through the door why his company was chosen so he knows what is expected of him. I am very anal, get many compliments on taking my time and won't sacrifice quality. (I can still make a mistake) I have had people insult me by their questions but instead of getting mad I ask why did they ask. Usually it is because of a bad or a few bad experiences. I love it when I hear the last guy never did that or the last guy was only here 30 minutes which I get from many former customers of a certain company.

    Leo
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Norm

    A simple self breath test will check the accuracy of the Fyrite. Filter paper does the smoke test, and a draft gauge,,,how can a person go wrong?
    If you drop your Testo once other than sending back to the factory for calibration, how would you know?

    Its a Breathalyzer for combustion.

    Dave
    MaxMercy
  • Stephen C.
    Stephen C. Member Posts: 60


    When will you be here? :)

    30-45 mins sounds about right.

    Just how long should it really take?
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    My average maintenance is 60-90 minutes

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  • mtfallsmikey
    mtfallsmikey Member Posts: 765
    As a certified \"old timer\"

    Dad, as well as a couple of really smart Dead Men, taught me how to set up by eye, but when the Arab oil embargo hit in the early '70's, then we got our first Bacharach "wet kit"..that was the ONLY kit available at the time...I still use a Bacharach wet kit I've had for about 20 years now, change the fluid annually (only do about 15 burners a year now), and I can still eyeball pretty close, but since I quit smoking, can't eyeball over fire draft as well as I used to. Dad would hold a lit cig at the access door, then pull it away, so a little trail of smoke would get sucked in. When he got it about 2"-3" away from the door, and the smoke trail stopped getting pulled in, it was "just right" to him...verified as daggone close by the draft gauge! Of course, I wouldn't dream of leaving someone's house without testing. It really doesn't take too long, and I like sleeping well at nights!
  • Charlie Masone
    Charlie Masone Member Posts: 66


    Most guys I know would not take a combustion test just because they changed the transformer
  • chris_95
    chris_95 Member Posts: 47


    That may be true, but why did he adjust the combustion by eye after changing the transformer, without taking measurements?

  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    Transformer

    Do you suppose that a new transformer fits identically on the chassis to how the old transformer fit?

    If the new one fits better, has a new gasket, and has no air leaks, how will you know that the air flow hasn't changed (whether it is after midnight, or not)?

    Test every time. It's code.

    CYA.

    Noel
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76
    Noel

    Tell me that when your at a customers house at 1am. Easy to say when your home in a warm house!!
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    I do 24/7 service for my own customers + several other oil companies.

    Yes, I test combustion even ayt 1 AM

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  • burnerman_2
    burnerman_2 Member Posts: 297
    i agree with john

    at midnight or 1 am i to am gonna get the guy heat and head to bed going out on calls in the winter if the burner is set up and the coustomers has a dryer close by pets ur tune up to specs will last til the air inlet is clogged most r lazy i had a customer last yr never changed her air filter back in o7 nothing changed so we can do all we want to help but they have to be willin to help to if u want a delux cleaning then u will pay more royboy
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0


    The problem with they old eye test is that you can't tell someone the efficiency. And most people want to know what the efficiency of the unit is on their annual. I used to get a kick out of looking at the service cards and seeing the same co2, stack temp, and draft over the course of twenty years. Nothing wrong with setting it by eye first as long as you test it. I'd like to see someone test a Buderus or Thermodyne by eye.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557


    NFPA states that anytime combustion is changed, a combustion test must be performed. All of our techs are required to test combustion anytime they do anything that might affect combustion. I have seen many times when an improperly adjusted unit caused a house to soot up. I have even seen this happen when a combustion test was done, but the tech failed to properly interpret the results.

    The unit doesn't know that it shouldn't soot up the house just because you adjusted it by eye at 1:00 AM. As one of my teachers told me years ago: There is no good excuse for not doing it right the first time.
  • mtfallsmikey
    mtfallsmikey Member Posts: 765
    Gotta remember, Mike:

    People really did not care about combustion efficiency whe #2 was 25 cents / gallon!
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    John

    Even at 1 am(or 2, 3 5 whenever) , I run the furnace to test my repairs and make sure it is running. As I clean up my tools and fill out the Work order / bill sheet.I Stick the analyzer in, (warm up on analyzer = 1 minute). as it does its thing, I do mine. 90% of the time nothing is required, but I test, and if required, I can advise customer, and adjust.

    I am up, and there is a minimum bill time for after hours calls, so generally no extra charge for the time.

    I would rather be sure, than find that a place I was at had the EMS call out for anything. Had that happen ONCE (coincidental..Homeowner fell down the stairs and broke his leg) but there is nothing like driving past a place seeing ambulance there, and thinking.."what did I miss last night?"

    Noel say CYA.. I prefer to armour plate.

    Mitch
  • tk_3
    tk_3 Member Posts: 36


    In my past life I worked for an oil company for 20 yrs. I was a tech for 11 yrs and a service manager for 9 yrs. My opinion here is you must take the company to task. Blaming the tech is not 100% correct here. The tech must have some responsibility but the company holds the bag. This whole thread is like blaming the child instead of the parents. The problem starts at the top. The company sets the rules. The tech doing it the way the company wants is also the company’s responsibility. We have lost the work ethic that we work for the company they do work for us. A lot of tech’s both young and old lost the self-pride to be the best they can be. If the company set the rules to test than the tech must test. I know, it’s easy to say that but how do you know they are. They will take short cuts. Why? The tech is not held accountable to follow the rules. When you take the personal pride and accountability away what do you have left. Employees running the business.
    This will shake up service departments and owners. When we took away the clock watching service department and minimal service calls and demanded the tech do a better job we made more money. It did not happen overnight but there is a cost to being the best. We got the call backs down from 10% to 1.5%, guys were spending a little more time on the jobs, and less service calls. This allowed us to do better paying work. Cuts the overtime down. Oh and by the way weed out the not so productive tech’s, only to replace them with better techs. You ask where do you find them? As the saying goes “ Build it and they will come”. We set plans in place for all this and in a period of about 2.5 years we had the best service department we ever had. Everyone accountable for themselves, tech’s teaching tech’s (the proper way of doing things). Life as a service manager was good. It was nice to go on vacation for a week and come back to work and the only note’s on my desk was a welcome back note from the service dispatcher. The tech’s were doing there job well, the assistant service manager doing what he was to be doing, service dispatcher doing her job, sales guy’s doing there job (which included a heat loss/gain on every quote). My job was to only make sure everyone else did there job. It was a lot easier than it was 3 years prior, had better tech’s, company growing in account base, closing more sales, less callbacks, everybody making more money including the owner and of course all this with less headaches.
    So let’s not always blame the techs. When left alone they will try to get away with what ever they can. We have all been there at one time or other. When a flock has a herder you have a more controlled flock.
    That’s my 2 cents worth, well maybe 4 cents as windy as I got.
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    BRAVO!

    That was an excellent write. nowadays few care about the work, or even learning. (did one last week, owner frustrated, had almost 2 G in service calls in last 3 years, loked over the records and the "tech" (And I am REALLY loose on that term) changed out no less than 27 (!!!) nozzles, never did combustion. essentially threw parts at it. (change nozzle, unit ran, must be it...)

    I am a one man shop (taking it wasy right now as I am recovering from a back injury in Aug, why I am here daytime), spent 3 hours there setting it up right, (and no I did not need to change the nozzle lol)

    Guy was amazed at the amount of diagnostic tools I pulled out, he had NEVER seen most of them.

    better trades training and business mentality is Required. Like a post in the "Challenges facing our Indusrty" thread, businesses don't need to "fix" pricing, but rather need to stand there ground and not lower rates to "get the job" the SECOND you do that..you just told the world you are overcharging and willing to go lower..

    can you say.."going out of business sale"? I knew you could..

    Your child and parents analogy is spot on to me..

    Well done
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    I agree with most everything you said.
    Companies need to take the time to train techs like they used to. My father tells the story of how the company that hired him out of trade school paid him a years wages to ride along, alternating between the companies top 2 technicians. So even though he didnt make the company a dime in his first year, but the company knew after that they would have a competent technician.

    Trade schools now only teach how to pass the code test, they dont teach real trouble shooting and technical skills.

    Thats where I take issue,... If these techs have gone to school where they spend their day learning nothing but code,.. then take and pass code test to get their certificate, why can they still not follow the code? In Mass the CMR 4:00 says to test combustion after any changes.

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  • sootmonkey
    sootmonkey Member Posts: 158
    Great topic

    Great topic.

    Back in the day that I worked for others, I may not have tested the Thermopride that I was called to at 11:00 PM. Just set it by eye and get some sleep.

    Attude changed when my name went on the side of the van.
    Just a monkey chewin on a bannanna
  • Randy-Lee Braman
    Randy-Lee Braman Member Posts: 40
    my names on it

    My names on the truck,my names on the bill head,i will test and set it up every time i work on it for a combustion
    related problem that deals with the burner,weather it be at 1am or 1 pm.
    Its only myself and my helper,and i'm the one on call all the time.When i leave i want it right,i like to sleep nights knowing i cleaned or repaired it and set it up to the best of my abiliety.
    I guess the best example i can give is,i was cleaning a 3 section WM for a new customer last year,
    The wife came down after i had taken off the sheet metal top and was brushing it down,she asked me why i had removed the top and was sticking the brush down in her boiler.told her thats how its done.she then replied i've been here for every cleaning and no one ever did that.
    I guess thats why it took me 3 hours to remove all that packed soot.Also no hole drilled to stick a probe in.
    Do the job right the first time and you have a piece of mind and a life time customer.I know i not only have them but the rest of the family on both sides.thats a total of 6 boilers and 3 hot air furnaces.
    Randy
  • john_83
    john_83 Member Posts: 76


    We can sit and discuss this topic all night long my point is and the bottom line is majority of your oil companies on a late nite call repair fire and get back in the truck that is still running outside on their bosses dime. Its nice to hear that some of you go through the whole procces at that late at nite but kinda hard to believe . Just my 2 cents
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    John, don't just blame

    John,

    Don't just blame oil companies. I work for one and there are good and bad. I can also tell horror stories about heating only guys and plumbers. People are people and you find the whole range no matter what type company they are with. Yes, my truck is running on the bosses dime but it is locked. If it is 0 out at midnight I want to keep my health. The older I get the less resilient I am to cold.

    Leo
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    Also remember that

    I do NOT go out everytime the phone rings in the middle of the night. I charge a min 2 hours service at double time, whether I am there 10 minutes or the whole 2 hours, + anything over 2 hours is billed at 2x rate (Hey if I am loosing sleep, I am going to get well paid to do so.). makes people think twice. I advise them that unless they live in a carboard box, or have a window open,the house will only cool about 5° til 8am, and I will be there first thing (2nd if they are 2nd promise etc..) Ovious exceptions are the insisters..they want to pay fine with me,(check or credit card at the door, no dickeruing after the repair is done...happened once..lesson learned) don't mind the extra cash, and 2) people who have been away and the house is already cold, they worry about pipes freezing, and I will go, has to be 50° when they call...

    But if I go out..I do it right, and yes, hard as it is to believe, I test EVERY time, even gas (90% of my market anyway)

    Mitch
  • Norm Harvey
    Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684


    Wow! I wish I could get away with that fee schedule!

    Theres so much competition around here.

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  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    LOL

    I don't get away with it often, but hey..its my sleep. Most of the shops here are about the same though. Being a one man op, I need my beauty rest. Lot of folks are willing to wait, just want on the "list"

    My biggest trouble is the "yellow pages finger walkers" that call EVERY guy and the first one there gets the work.. and they do not call to cancel.

    That happened once and 4(!) of us arraived at the same time (8 am- 1st call).we talked it over, and all of got in our trucks and left
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