promblems steam system

Chas_2

I will check to be total sure but i 99 % sure that the return piping is not clogged being i hear the condensate returning when the boiler pressure is low or at zero,on another note the hardest main to get heat to is off course the farrest from the boiler it's vented to the max could this slow main be caused by the boilers producition of wet steam and before the air vent closes about 3 to 4 minutes there a slug of hot condensate draining into the loop seal and then finally the steam arrives to close the vent but that's after every other main and loop seal is hot ,all the seals are a minium of 28 inches in length and all are at the same height in respect to each other 4 loop seal in one building the rest of the end of the main drip terminate in the boiler room ,one i have ran back to the boiler room instead of tying into the toubled return ,though it may be presurizing that return but after repiping seperatly into the boiler room did not improve that troubled return thanks for any input peace and good luck clammy at RDEUZA@aol.com

Chas_2

promblem steam system guru's needed

well here i go ,i've done alot of things to this very baddly installed burmham 1105 ,including major main vent replacement,installtion of loop seals due to the fact that the end of the mains drips do not drip into a wet return and where passing steam into other returns and causing big distrubtion promblems and of course banging ,replaced a former wet return into the basement which ran hortizontal above the water line and banged ,lowered and replaced with steel ,i also found a steam main drip which was dis connected so i made a loop seal and tied her in,in removing that hortizontal return in the boiler room i found a old wet return that was shot ,landlord did not tell me this and i asked many many times hinden by r-19 wrapped around that copper retrurn it's height is about 10 to 12 inches below the new return , promblem also being that when they jammed yes jammed the 1 1 /2 copper under ground through fill between buildings they reduced from 2 to 1 1/2 the edr of return is less then 1700 being it returns just one building which has a edr of less then about 1000 edr or about 250000 btu's i know it may be a little tight but in math it should work correct,for pressure i'm running low at 1 1/2 lb max waiting for vapor stat,the major promblem being that after about 45 minutes of operation the far building returns are hammering and it sounds like a mix of steam and flash and the water is not returning durning the cycle it seems to be backing up from the boiler and through migration it goes to this above water line retrun about 60 to 70 ft away ,,here's some more info the boiler is piped in steel with 2 3 inch riser into a 4 inch header with 1 3 inch main and 2 21/2 mains the header is above 24 inch from the water line except by my math it's exiting velocity is about 37 fps to much for me and the equilizer is only 2 which in by book is way to small and should have been 2 1/2 at mimiun ,could this return backing up be caused by to small a equilizer i know the steam being produced is wet but after some draining and filling of the boiler the header temps are a bit hotter then when i first arrived ( about 198 at header while steaming)the good things that have occured are getting heat at the ends of the mains in about 1/3 the time about 14 minutes from 42 minutes and during start up she runs now for at least 20 minutes instead of about 2 minutes most of all the system banging is gone except the one return line and all the mins are getting hot,the mains now drain instead of not draining and none of the rad vents are spitting water as before ,that slightly undersized return that buried underground is bugging me big time and the only opitionis to dig across a court yard and run a new 2 inch return which would be below the boilers water level except this is a very difficult job side walks stairwells and such about 30 to 35 ft if i build a false water line i have to really raise it to make that retrun wet again about14 inch above old found wet return and about 2 1/2 ft above boilers water line very tricky ,i was planning to make the false water only on this troubled return while tieing the other building returns into the hartford loop before the false water line so they can maintain there water line being they are all dripped seperatly and are well below the boilers water line ,i have removed all the f and t that where installed and would not drain due to the fact that the returns where pressurized ,could this return pressurizition be being caused by a undersized equilizer ,in closing i was called in by a plumber who maintains the plumbing at this complex and is clueless about steam ,the landlord is a very very nice guy and has confined in me and had admitted that i am the # 10 guy who has been here but in defence he stated that i was the only guy who had gooten any results that he can see and that to him most of the promblems are gone but i have told him as good as it operates now it is still not correct,i have also closed the auto feeder due to the fact that during it's cycle it consistly is trying to feed water and on the off cycle it ends up being floodeed ,with the feeder off she does cycle on the lwco but at a 1/2 lb the retrun water starts to come back except that the semi wet dry return hammering appears after the mains are just about completly hot and air vents are closing ,looking for some real steqm help on this one,the owner realizes that it's a take one step forward and one back kinda deal except he's had no more complaints of hammering and banging any more.I just need a little insight that re doing the equilizer may yeild some results nd what's the feeling about the false water line and how much i am going to have to raise it to get the dry return wet again ,next week i'll be running some laser height line to get a exact height ,sorry for the long post but alot of question and i could us ethe insight thanks much peace and good luck clammy

Steamhead (in transit)

That hammering return

wouldn't hammer if steam could not get into it. Is there a vent or maybe a cross-connection to another return that would let air out of the hammering one and allow the steam to get in? If not, a loop seal where the steam main discharges into the return would stop the steam.

The slow main might have a slight pitch problem, where water collects but the steam can move it out of the way with a bit of pressure.

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Chas_2

loop seals

I have put loop seals on every drip on the system where the return run above the boilers water line and there are 4 that are dripped into the wet return below the boilers water line,i have searched high and low and have not seen any crossover traps if there are any theu would have to be behind plaster garage wall .on monday i'll get there early and see what i can find ,what are your feelings about the undersize euilizer and how much of a factor could this be on retuurn water returning,also i have checked all the mains and they do have proper pitch and are all pitching in the correct direction and all are insulated in conditioned space for the most part and are in good condition,i did notice some sediment in one supply main while removing a f&t and piping a vent tee and a loop seal alot of crude like a pile of rust in the main i removed most of it i mostly fiqured all the rust was being formed by the low quality wet steam in the main causing more then normal condensation on the wall surfaces ,this sytem was installed 3 years ago and the previus boiler was 10 to 15 years old and now that some of the truth has been coming out also was plauged with ,hammering banging ,shortcycling and flooding besides air vents spitting water ,always looking for your insight there are not to many that i myself locally can bounce ideas off of and get real world answers or the real results many thanks peace and good luck clammy

Steamhead (in transit)

You'll probably have to

open the garage wall to see all the piping. But you need to find how the steam is getting in there. Check the return connections in the main building first.

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Chas_2

is it possible

that because the equilizer is undersized that it's pushing hot boiler water back into that once wet now new dry return and causing the hammer ,i really don't think there's a croosover trap because this is a classic one pipe system that once was fired coal with a high water containt and higher water level which did not have much of a a dimension so it had to run very low pressure there's only about a 14' a deminsion from what i can see tell and measure also upon the replacement of about 35 ft of wet return i noticed one lone check valve on that line upon re piping the drop i seperated them and tied them seperatly into the wet reurn which upon the next boiler cycle all hammering in that line disappeared and both mains heated instead of the shorter loops steam by passing into the other mains return and stopping all venting of that main so some things are working much better before ,being the a deminsion is so tight it makes me worry about raising a false water that high i'll see after i set up a lazer and shoot soem real eleavation lines thanks again frank peace and good luck i'll post some pics of this nightmnare soon

Steamhead (in transit)

I doubt it's the equalizer

the equalizer's function is to work with the Hartford Loop to keep water from leaving the boiler if the return line breaks. I think you'll find there are still piping issues. Trace the steam coming back in that hammering return and locate its source.

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Chas_2

thanks steamhead

thanks Frank your simple words of steam entering return made me think about ever main and end of main and like awaking from a dream it came to me a end of the main drip that i did not put a loop sealon ,with all the other correction i was doing i just plain forgot abouther ,hopefully this will cure that return water hammer ,i'll call my burmham dist and find out about a 2 stage gas train that would truely help this also oversized boiler some what ,thanks again for those elegant words which opened my mind peace and good luck clammy