Help to replace a Webster Modulation Vent Trap

Unknown

If you replace the trap with a main vent, realize that you are reversing the direction of air flow in THAT WHOLE RETURN main. Add to that a fast vent or two, and the condensate at start-up, which is a considerable amount, will also tend to "go uphill" toward that new vent location, vigorously. It can be extremely noisey. I'd go with the new traps, rather than the vents.

I've been there. (Steamhead, remember the building that I removed the condensate tank and vacuum pump from the high end of the dry return? The one that went back to gravity returns? Once the condensate and air reversed direction and went DOWNHILL to the original vent location, it was quiet as a mouse.)

Noel

Ken_51

Help to replace Webster Modulation Vent Trap

I am a homeowner that recently discovered this web site after reading one of Dan Holohan's books and learning about my steam heat! Thanks, Mr Holohan. Wow, what did didn't know! I have a 2 pipe, gravity, steam system in a old Victorian house in Virginia. Believed to have been installed in a 1922 renovation to the house. Now the condensate is returning very slowly to the boiler(7 yr old Burnham IN8) causing the low water probe to cut off the burner and then to call for water at about 45 minutes of run time. Radiators begin to heat at 15 minutes after start up. After several cycles, the house gets to temp and the stat turns off, it takes several hours before all the condensate returns. Then the boiler floods and I have to drain it each time. There are three mains and three returns. The cut in is set at 1/2 and cut out at 2 psi. I suspect that the wet returns are probably clogged up, a check valve in the wet return just before the near piping has failed and what I believe is an F&T trap has also failed. It is a Webster Modulation Vent Trap (1TM1 on the body and 1TM2 on side cover.) It also has an air vent fitted to the top - Hoffman #1A radiator vent. No other vents on the main returns. What F&T trap should replace that old Webster? How do I determine its capacity? Photos attached. Please help.

Unknown

Wow Ken,

by the look of that near boiler piping scheme, you`re throwing alot of water out into the system. I would address this issue firstly.
Then invest in a vaporstat (if that isn`t one), and "crank-it down".

Dave

Ken_51

Air Vent

That Hoffman 1-A needs to go. It is just keeping the air in the system slowing down the steam. Some would add a Gorton #2 main vent and others would just leave a open pipe.

The Webster Trap is not an F&T per se. It is really a float trap designed to keep water from squirting out the air vent hole if the boiler pressure got too high during the coal era.

I am sorry to say that your near boiler piping is totally wrong, and needs to be completely redone in steel per Burnham's instructions by a true Steam Fitter

Your system was designed to work on oz/in2 of steam pressure and was the one of the best heating systems ever made.

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Ken_51

Yes, I plan on addressing the near piping issue in the near future. (No pun intended) Finding a Steam Fitter so far has been challenging. I live in Rockbridge County, Virginia. The existing pressure control is a Johnson Controls P47AA. Can I replace it with a Vaporstat? Is it a job I can do myself? Can you suggest an appropriate make & model. Does it get installed on the existing siphon? An appropriate setting would be what? - 1/4 oz and 3/4 oz?
I will see how the system responds my first removing the 1A air vent on that old Webster.

Unknown

Yes, yes, and yes

just try to keep the pressure below 8oz.

Dave

Ken_51

Air Vent

When you remove that 1-A, please also remove the 1/2 x 1/8 fitting.

In your first picture of the vent trap, there is a bit of piping/fitting in the back that is of interest. Please take another picture of that brass looking object there.

Please look for other "cross-over" traps in your system at the ends of the steam mains/dry returns. They may have failed.

You may also need to flush out your return piping from the vent trap to where it goes into the boiler.

That flex gas piping going to the boiler doesn't give me a warm feeling, as well as the flue connector not sealed at the chimney.



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Ken_51

Thanks for your interest, help and concern. Firstly, I did remove the 1A vent, but was unable to get the fitting off. Would some direct heat applied to the fitting loosen it? When the heat came up it did vent quietly and for the first 20 minutes. I had to leave the boiler room for about 15 minutes and upon returning, I found a good size puddle on the floor. So I reinstalled the vent for now. I'll replace it with an appropriate size air eliminator. Secondly, I took a few photos of the fitting that you asked about. I have no idea what it is. However, the pipe that it is above is a main supply return and so is the one to its right. The two outer pipes on the left and right are dry returns. As you can see, that fitting is elbowed to the dry return on its left. Why is that? And lastly, the flex gas pipe does connect to black iron pipe a little further down as you can see from the additional photo. Is that a major problem? Oh yes, the flue is properly connected to the chimeny in the next room. The photo only shows it passing through the boiler room wall.

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Unknown

Did Gordo say that?

Think we got our wires crossed here, nothing fools him or Frank!

Dave

Ken_51

Picture of a Trap

It is a thermostatic trap that acts like an air vent for the steam mains. You may have others like it elsewhere in your system.

I've not seen one quite like it. It and the others may need to be totally replaced with new traps like the Barnes & Jones 122 (1/2") or 132 (3/4"). Edit-The traps seem to have been put in backwards from the get-go. It worked, but was not optimal by today's standards

You should not have water squirting out of the air vent line. Ever.

Steam pressure is too high, traps have failed open, return lines clogged with sludge, or all of the above.

Flexible gas line should be replaced with proper steel pipe.

Dave, I'm fooled all the time!

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Ken_51

No, I don't think so. I screwed up the posting somehow...

Unknown

OK Ken

I was wondering what was going-on.

Dave

Ken_51

Ken, this is Gordo

You didn't do anything wrong. This is a big glitch in this website....

Unknown

Ken, or Gordo?,

I`m getting a little lost here LOL, perhaps I`ll keep my "mouth shut", and just watch.

Dave

Ken_51

Gordo, I'm a little confused as to why there would be a T-trap near the end between the dry return and the steam main. Isn't the direction of flow through that trap into the steam main return? If the system was working correctly, there should not be any steam coming through the dry return -- should there? Regardless, my guess it that that trap has failed as well. So one more trap to replace. Many of the radiator traps have failed (I recently learned)and I have replaced some completely and others with a replacement kit. Several still need to be replaced and they are on order.

Tom Hopkins

End of Steam Main Traps

are there to act as air vents to let the air out of the steam mains and vent into the dry return. This gets the steam into the mains quicker.

For some reason, known only to the Dead Men perhaps, your end-of-main traps or "cross over" traps were put on what we would now regard as backwards.

I would be interested if Tunstall could get you internal elements for that unusual trap.

Is your dry return getting hotHotHOT? If so, you got bad traps.

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Ken_51

Inside that Trap?

Gordo and anyone else who may be able to indentify what this fitting is, please let me know. See previous posts for initial photos and description. It came off and apart with some difficulty. While it is off, I have plugged and capped the elbow and T that it was fitted to. See attached photos of interior works. It is part of the Webster steam system as indicated on the cap. No other marking except an H on the body.

Tom Hopkins

That is a

#422 Thermostatic valve in its original form. It was obsolete by the 1920's! The trap should be replaced with a more modern trap piped in the opposite direction from which it was installed.

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Ken_51

A replacement and alternative

Thanks Gordo for the ID. I knew this steam system was around a while! But that actually dates it better. I have a spare Hoffman 8C trap, would that work in its place? I could pipe it in there the correct direction.
But let me ask you this, as an alternative to replacing the trap, that specific location it is an ideal location to install one or two Gorton #2 since there are no existing Main Air Vents on the system. Two of the three main supply connect to each other right there before dropping down to the boiler. I have no other place to add air vents. There is enough hight there and perhaps a tree with #2's on it would work. It seems reasonable to me...

Tom Hopkins

Your Gorton idea

sounds good to me. Go for it!



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Tom Hopkins

Where the third main

Ties into the system...is there another trap?

There is a main vent on your system...it's that 1/2" pipe on your vent trap with the 1-A. In reply to a previous post, yes do what you must to get that 1/2" x 1/8" reducer off...heck, take off that 1/2" ell and pipe a Gorton or two right off that.To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_51

The third main returns from the opposite side of the boiler room and drops down low before coming around to connect to the other two mains and then to the boiler. That old Webster trap with the 1A vent on top is fed by the three dry returns. I'm almost certain that trap has failed. A #2 to replace the 1A there also?

Tom Hopkins

That third main

should have a means of getting the air out of it before it drips below the water line of the boiler. If it does not..it should be added somehow.

The old Webster "Modulation Vent Trap" contains an internal float mechanism. The way it was supposed to work is if the boiler pressure gets too high (greater than 1 psi or so), the water will back up in the trap body and cause the float to shut off the air vent on the top (where the 1-A is).

These float traps were imperfect and were later supplemented by "Return Traps" which used steam pressure from the boiler itself to get the water back into the boiler.

The float could be broken off or water-logged. The "trap" body and the line below could be filled with sludge, slowing down the water trying to get back to the boiler.

Yes, put a Gorton #2 on top of that vent trap...Some steamfitters would just have an open pipe. Do that only if you install a vaporstat...

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Ken_51

The third main does not have a vent and it is the shortest run about 26'and is 2" pipe where it drops down. Can I drill and tap for a 1/2" pipe at the end of the that run? I have 14" of clearance to the ceiling there. I've never done that before, but willing to try it. Because of the shorter run can I use a Gorton #1?
Can that old Webster trap just be eliminated?

Tom Hopkins

Yes, yes, & yes



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Adam_13

Webster trap

Hi, just a H.O. here, but one who loves early steam systems. As far as I can tell it looks like you have the old carbon expansion rod type trap. The heat of the steam expands the carben rod which closes the trap. I have something similar to this on my 1930 Glenwood gas oven. To maintain cooking temp, there is a carbon rod in the oven that expands/contracts to operate a diaphram gas valve. Anyway, according to Webster (in 1922), the old trap body can be fitted with a "newer" sylphon trap interior. I don't know if you can still get rebuild kits for the later Webster traps, might be another option. Sorry for the book here, but I just love the old stuff. PS- Thought you might like to see you trap in the 1922 Webster book...

Ken_51

Thanks Adam for the information and photos. Great Stuff.

Gordo and Dave -- Thanks for all your help it is much appreciated. I intend on using all your suggestions. I'll let you know how it turn out once it's completed. Or if I run into any problems before that and need more help.

Steamhead (in transit)

Yes, I remember it well

wonder how well those Vapor systems are working now?

Ken, if you find the existing trap vents slowly, change it to a fast one like a Barnes & Jones #122.

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Matt_67

Thanks Noel and Steamhead for the input. Please bare with me, I'm trying to get this completely understood before I do anything. You are referring to the obsolete Webster #442 Thermostatic valve? It should be replaced with a trap not a main air vent. Correct? Right now it is not functioning as a T trap - because it failed open between the dry return from the radiators to the end of the steam main before they drop down.
And that very large Webster vent trap with the air vent on top (#1A) has also failed. Could that vent trap be eliminated or should it be replaced? There is a loop which bypasses it into the wet return after passing through a check valve (which is probably stuck barely open hence the extremely slow condensate return to the boiler which is why I was looking for help initially)

Tom Hopkins

Ken

How do you know the Webster modulating vent trap has "failed"?

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Matt_67

Gordo, I believe this to be so because of its age (85 yrs) and
condensate will drip out of that air vent on top, in small amounts, half way through the cycle.

Steamhead (in transit)

You probably have

water backing up in the return below the vent trap. Maybe the check valve is sticking?

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Matt_67

I believe that the check valve is certainly stuck as well, since it is as old as the vent trap! So the only way condensate is getting back into the boiler is via that cross-over trap #422.

Matt_67

See if you can

get the top off of the check valve. Take the old ell off the vent line on top of the Webster Mod. trap and put a 1/2" X hose connection on it and flush it out. Get wet. Get messy!

As posted before, the pressure you're running at may be too high. When the pressure gets too high ( greater than 1 psi), the condensate can't return to the boiler and backs up into the returns and may squirt out the vent. Don't condemn your vent trap yet. It may be old, but Webster built 'em well and there is only one moving part.



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Unknown

Hey Frank,

On a different subject, Mr. Romney is going to be at CSC today, speaking to the locals. We should get a peek at the campus on the news tonight.

I listened to Mr. McCain there in the 2000 election cycle. Mr. Forbes was there, then, too. I only saw him, outside.

A lot of the candidates pass through New London (NH) during each election cycle, I'd guess.

Noel