Bad Propane???? Darin Cook

Bob Harper_2

Propane itself is not the problem---it's all the other crap they blend in to make it Liquified Petroluem Gas or LPG. The sp. gr., (which is actually the vapor density) ranges from 1.50 for the good stuff to 1.58 for the crap. As a quality assurance mgr. for a mfr. I helped identify numerous areas where heavy LPG was in use. Batches of this fuel were obtained and used in testing back in Mn at the R&D lab. Unless you have a gas chromatograph and someone trained to use it, no there is no way to field test the gas.

If the tank is set up per NFPA 58, you should not be getting problems with moisture and freezing regulators. There should be a primary or first stage regulator at the tank bonnet then a second stage regulator preferrably against the house. While it is legal to be a combination first and second stage regulator, it means you have a longer run under WCI in a skinny tube. If you don't have second stage regulation, you just found your problem or one of them. Two stage regulation is required per '58.

If you continue to have problems with delayed ignition or sooting, contact the suppliers and ask them for a copy of the Bill of Lading, which states the vapor density of the last batch of fuel at 60F. Send this to your mfrs of the appliances and let them do battle for you.

If you can find it, try a batch of HD-5, which is 95% pure propane with less then 5% ethylene. It comes in a pipeline from Texas to Pa..Some of my local bulk dealers buy off this pipeline strictly while others buy from refineries. Note that the same dealer may buy high grade stuff one batch then stoop to buying the blue light special the next. He is under no obligation to buy either much less make notification of it. LP is not sold like gas pumps where you pick your grade and pay accordingly. LP is more like the wild west. Caveat Emptor!

HTH,
Bob

Darin Cook_5

Anyone else experiencing problems?

I have had three separate incidents with tanks being set by one of our local suppliers and equipment not being able to run until a different tank was set and "fresh" propane fed to unit. Are there any standards for propane? Is there any kind of diagnostic equipment available to check propane? VERY, VERY agravating to spend hours troubleshooting to fing out the gas is bad. Of course the response everytime from the propane company was, bad gas? Come on kid, you must have done something wrong!







Darin

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ScottMP

I've had bad gas Darin

Usually after mexican food or a hard night drinking keg beer, man that is .....

Sorry Dude could'nt help it.

I don't deal much with Propane.

Scott

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Mark Eatherton

Dead LP....

I've never experienced a tank of bad LP, but have had personal experience with it losing its energy content between the tank and my house in the mountains. It seems to "lose" its btus when in the vapor form sitting in a copper line over the winter. Pressure is still there, but it won't ignite until the old stuff has been purged. Royal PITA when you're on your knees praying to the thermocouple gods...

Ever had pilot pushers thumb? Worse than any carpal tunnel syndrome you've ever experienced. Red tear shaped imprint on your thumb from holding the pilot button down...

THere ought to be a law...

Also, when I purchased a new LP tank for my grill this summer past, when I took it to the LP supplier to have it filled, they said they needed to "purge" the tank. Filled it with a half a gallon of LP, and vented it to atmosphere, 3 times!

With a larger tank, if they didn't do a good job of "purging" the air out of it, I can see how it could cause a problem.

Good to see you at home this Thanksgiving Sarge. Welcome back, and again, thank you and your comrades for your commitment.

ME

EBEBRATT-Ed

The only propane problem I have had (don't work with it all that much) is moisture in the tank causing intermittant regulator problems. I think they use a drying agent inthe tank.

ED

Steve Ebels_3

????

What exactly were the symptoms Darrin? Equipment just wouldn't light up? Same company all 3 times?

lchmb

methanol

Mark did they by chance put any methanol in when they purged the tank? Darin, I would be wondering if they have vacuum packed tanks and are simply adding gas and going. If the tank lost it's vacuum it could be that they have air trapped in the tank and that's what your getting (guessing here). Another thought is the regular freezing from moisture but I would guess your guages would tell you that.

Mark Eatherton

Nope, just LP... (NM)

ME

singh

Work with a different supplier.

And if owner uses that supplier, explain the situation from past experience, and mention there may be extra charges.

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Wayco Wayne_2

Last Winter

I had a problem with a new LP system with a Prestige boiler. It would intermitantly go off on reset. The short story was moisture in the tank freezing in the pressure regulator leaving the tank. The pressure would dive when more than a little capacity was called for by the boiler. It could run on low fire fine. The LP company changed multiple regulators and finally put methanol in to chase the moisture out of the new tank. No problems since then. BTW. I got the same nonsense about, it must be my boiler. I've found the Prestige line to be very trouble free. WW

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Darin Cook_5

Thanks for the responses

The problems were with two different suppliers. The one scenario was with a GB 142. The only way it would run was to cover the attenuator about 80% (this would enrich the fuel/air mix) and it would fire up. CO was through the roof though. The other is a Heil horizontal furnace up in a attic. It locks out, you go bleed it, it runs. The propane does not smell like propane. All the problem jobs have two separate primary and secondary regulators. All have proper pressures and all are properly sized.

My thought was too much methanol in all of the cases. I cannot get any straight answers from the propane company. I think they took the "bad" propane and purged it to the atmosphere. Problem solved!!!
Thanks again for everyones responses. I did not realize that the propane supply biz was the wild west. An eye opener once again!







Darin

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Alan R. Mercurio_3

Darin, in the event that one of these companies might be Kosco (that’s who I work for) Please feel free to contact me (570) 594 – 8259 I’d be happy to get personally involved. and see this through to a resolution with straight answers. I have already alerted our propane department of this issue potentially involving us.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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Bob Harper_2

PERC

http://www.propanecouncil.org/newsroom/press_releaseDetail.cfv?id=353

Apparently, the propane industry is still trying to get their arms around methanol as its solubility varies greatly with temp.s.

When two batches of LPG are mixed, the odorants may form a new funky odor. Try mixing two perfumes and see what you get.There are over two dozen odorants for the refinery to choose from. Not just limted to ethyl or methyl mercaptan. Some are more resistant to odor fade from rust or wet steel tanks while others are better at wet clay soils and so on. They add odorant based upon the expected applications but the odorant is added at the refinery--not your local bulk plant, per DOT regs. For instance, if you add one pound of ethyl mercaptan to 10,000 gallons of propane, you would theoretically smell fugutive gas at no more than 20% of the Lower Explosive Limit (LEL). However, for most humans, the odor threshold of mercaptans is about 0.5 to 1.0 parts per BILLION! That means if one or two molecules fly up your nose, you will probably sense it.

Properties of odorants should include:
>odor-unlpleasant and distinctive redily identified as gas and dissimilar to household odors
>Volatily-odorant should not condense out at pressures, temps. and rates applied
>Inertness-should not polymerize, react or decompose when exposed to the constituents of gas or materials in delivery system
>Absorption by soil-gas passing through soil should retain sufficient odorant to remain detectable
>Corrosion-Should be non-corrosive to entire delivery sysetm. This means low sulphur with low reactive type sulphur in the moelcule
Combustion products-odorant should burn up completely and byproducts should not be corrosive, toxic or irritatiing.


Darin, I highly recommend you use a combustion analyzer to tweak those units.Running rich with high CO is asking for trouble. Be careful!

Bob