My 2-pipe Steam Mystery

LAG_2

Pix Per request of db; Here are 4 pictures of the system showing the wet return where it returns to boiler and riser; note the Crane 125 valve. Also a picture of End of Main piped to wet return going down wall (white) showing no crossover traps as Steamhead suggested. Also picture of 2 traps located in basement. And dry returns joining at riser with my new Gorton #1 vent and the Hoffamna 62 Vacuum break on antlers.

LAG

I have 2 pipe steam (150K BTU Utica Boiler) with baseboard-type radiators in my home. The 2 3-inch mains extending from boiler are each about 25 ft in length but have no vents. There are traps (H) for each baseboard rad but they are all located in the dry return lines in the basement and don't appear to have any venting capability. There is a wet reurn as well which connects with the dry return in a "riser" next to boiler; the riser had a dole 6B vacuum breaker on top just an inch from the floorboards above. The system never really worked right (distant rads never got hot) but somehow managed to keep us warm by intense first floor convection. The Dole 6B started spewing water after long cycles so I decided to replace it even though I never knew its purpose. I have not been able to locate anyone selling this (or any Dole) unit (even on Internet) so a supplier suggested a Hoffman 62 vacuum breaker which I installed. After that, boiler would build 5lbs pressure and cycle off but still no heat to distant rads. Desperate for info on the Dole 6B, I decided to use the patent # on the Dole to look up the patent info on the Dole 6B where I discovered that this unit served as a vacuum break and a vent. So I decided to remove the non-venting Hoffman entirely and leave the riser open to see what full venting of that would prove. When I fired the boiler, steam/heat went quickly to all rads including the distant 2nd floor ones. Now I'm thinking I need an air vent, so I obtained a Gorton #1 and attached it and the Hoffman 62 on antlers atop the riser. The Gorton releases air out and heat distribution is improved a lot but steam is not reaching the farthest rad even though the feeder pipe to it in the basement is hot. I don't think the trap is the problem since heat flows to that rad under full open venting... so I' wondering:

How does incomplete Gorton #1 venting stop the steam from getting to the last rad anyway? The Gorton doesn't get hot enough to close itself off so it is still capable of venting but somehow, steam doesn't quite make it all the way to the last rad but will do so with he riser

Will adding a second Gorton #1 allow enough venting to heat the last rad? If so, can I do away with the Hoffman vacuum breaker since it appears the Gortons can let air in and out and thus compensate for vacuum?

Why can't I just leave the riser entirely open ?

There appears to be a trap (but not like the others) in the wet return just before it connects with the riser. This has a bleeder screw on the riser side. What is this and what is it for?

Thanks for any input. I have been researching steam in books, internet etc but have not found references to a system like this one so any info would be appreciated.

don_52

trap, not like the others

BougUnsanna,

There appears to be a trap (but not like the others) in the wet return just before it connects with the riser. This has a bleeder screw on the riser side. What is this and what is it for?

Gerry Gill – “Before a radiator trap is a radiator trap, it’s an air vent”.

You "may" have found the root cause of your problem,
note the above quote.

If you removed the vacuum breaker or your substitute
and steam ( as if by magic ) got to the places it
needed to go, then your part way there.

The next step would be to take ( and post ) some pics
for the "steam men" to see, failing that any mill mark,
initial or insignia that might be on that last trap.

There are "some" obsoleted traps that can be rebuilt.

Post pics.

db

LAG

I will try to post a picture when my camera comes back from Indiana. In the meantime, I'll check for a mark on that wet return trap. By the way this "trap" is only about 6 inches above basement floor.

don_52

Trap / Vent

BougUnsanna / Alex

Sorry I couldn't answer sooner.

>Why can't I just leave the riser entirely open ?

I wouldn't do that, it'll just cause more/other issues,
I'd go with "at least" the #1 vent even if it's not
correct yet.

>By the way this "trap" is only about 6 inches above basement floor.

See below;

Site info; Go to: Systems / Steam / Two Pipe

You'll also find them (vents) near the bottoms of the return risers or main vents at the outlet side of the end-of-main F&T traps.

Somewhere right in this last section "I think" based on
what you describe is where the problem "in part" may be.

It helps explain the 5#'s of pressure some, what was the
pressure like when you manually vented the system?

The high pressure is most likely "blowing" the condesate
back through the last "device" if it wasn't you'd have
"tripped out" on low water or Worse "dry fired" that unit
by now.

The higher pressure and the possibility of a plugged
return "has me" concerned.

It might be time to call for the cavalry?

db

Steamhead (in transit)

BU, that's a Vapor system

which has some issues, but should be pretty easy to fix. It is designed to operate at a maximum pressure of 8 ounces or so. That's OUNCES, not pounds.

The system works by routing the condensate and air from your radiation thru the traps under the floor, into the dry return and out the vent. The traps keep steam from getting into the dry return. That Dole 6B is NOT a "vacuum breaker", it is an air vent that was designed to not allow air to re-enter the system once vented. This worked great with coal but doesn't work well with oil or gas, as any air left in the system when vacuum forms can expand and block the steam.

Look carefully at the ends of your steam mains. I bet you find radiator traps piped across the steam main and dry return. These "crossover traps" served as main vents by letting air, but not steam, pass into the dry return and out the vent.

You definitely need more venting capacity. If you don't have crossover traps, the mains can be drilled and tapped for vents. I'd put a Gorton #2 on each main. If you do have the traps, upgrade the dry return vent to a Gorton #2 (or two, if the air really hisses from the first one) and rebuild the traps if needed.

If all this sounds intimidating, call in a pro. Try the Find a Professional page of this site, under Resources above.

Vapor was the Cadillac of heating in its day and is still one of the best systems out there today. With proper care and repair, you can expect your system to deliver years of efficient comfort.

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LAG_2

Update from real Author -LAG. I am new to this forum and somehow,using another computer, I hijacked another author named bougunsanna. My apologies. Thanks to all for input. Replying to db.. that last trap-like thing in the wet return has "Crane 125" on it. Does that tell anyone anything? It has what appears to be a bleed screw on riser side. Based on its position above the wet return but below the pipe going into the Hartford loop, I'd guess there would be water in there. Re: pressure. When I manually vent, the gauge doesn't move from zero mark.
Replying to steamhead: My mistake The Dole 6B says on it Vacuum Valve not breaker. Not sure if there is a difference but I'm pretty sure the patent info I looked up said it did both so I assumed I needed to vent and account for vacuum.
I looked again and see no such "crossover traps" on the mains. At their end the mains pipe directly into the wet return. All the traps are on the dry return except for whatever that Crane 125 thing is on the wet. I tried the Find a Pro and got zero pros within 50 miles so I tried the forum.

Steamhead (in transit)

\"Crane 125\"

is probably a one-way "check" valve, rated 125 PSI. The screw on the side is a cap covering the hinge pin for the valve's flapper.

The Dole 6B can be replaced with a standard vent as described above. And you'll have to have the mains drilled and tapped for vents.

Where are you located?

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don_52

Okay...

LAG,

I feel better, maybe too many "character building" exercises
at the refinery this week, the name hijacking thing happens,
here, some sort of cookie/cache anomaly.

The description of the Crane 125 is exactly as Mr.SteamHead
says; a "swing check".

If you go here:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/35.pdf

on page 3 you'll see, we still had the pulley wheels
nailed to the ceiling, some damper counterweights and
coal behind the old bunker wall when we moved in to
our old "new" house.

The short 3" mains should have tipped me off...been a
long week.

End of Vent, so I'll shut my Trap. nyuk

Post pics...db

LAG_2

Thnaks again:
Reply to Steamhead & db: If the Crane 125 is a one way valve, is it supposed to prevent wet return water from passing up the riser or keep whatever might come down the riser from dry return (steam/water ??) from going back to boiler?
I am located in Binghamton NY which is 70mi South of Syracuse. Know anyone here who is up to the task?

db ...thanks for the link to that pdf of the textbook. A lot of that seemed "familiar" but I could not identify any one diagram that exactly matched what I seem to have. The detailed caption on pg 5 (Fig 8454) sounds like what my system wants to do but that complex valving L, A, F is not familiar. Might the old Dole 6B have been capapble of functioning as A and F. I have no equivalent for valve L.

One more piece of info. If I set thermostat and leave alone (with Gorton #1 in place atop return riser), distant rads won't warm becuase thermostat shuts it down. If I raise thermostat to extend the cycle, the distant rads warm, but water will spurt from riser via the Gorton. What would that indicate to you pros? and shouldn't the Gorton seal off in presence of water like db's pdf valve A?

Steamhead (in transit)

Pressure is too high

so water backs up into the riser. This system needs a Vaporstat instead of a Pressuretrol.

I have a friend in northeastern PA who might want to look at this system- he's a steam freak like me. I'll e-mail him and see what he says.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Those look like Sarco traps

We can get parts for these from several sources.

The horizontal part of the Hartford Loop is way too long. Bet you're getting some banging in there.

You don't need the vacuum breaker there. Just some good-sized main vents and a slightly shorter riser to give them proper headroom.

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LAG

Mr Steamhead Thank you for your reply. I really haven't noticed any banging in Hartford loop or anywhere near the boiler itself that I recall. This boiler replaced a gas-converted probably coal unit about 5 yrs ago and some of the piping may be residual. My "current" plan was to replace the vacuum breaker with a second Gorton #1 which just shipped so I was gald to hear that recommendation. If you don't think 2 Gorton #1's will do the trick can you recommend a single vent which I can put back in place (removing the antlers) given the 5 inches of headroom there? I have been trying to unscrew the fittings in the riser to adjust the headroom but in spite of much PB Blaster & other penetrating oils I can't seem to loosen them and am afraid they may be fused with rust and didn't want to break anything.

Back in 1997 I did replace a few traps with some Watts QF5's but never did the one which services the farthest rad. Maybe doing that in combo with a vent change will work?. What do you recommend for trap replacement?

Steamhead (in transit)

Rebuild the existing traps

that's usually the easiest way and works just as well.

You will need vents on your steam mains too- talk to Alex about that when he comes up.

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LAG_2

In a 11/17 posting Steamhead recommended a vaporstat to keep pressure low to prevent water from going up & out the riser. Wouldn't that Crane 125 one way valve (see "Wet Return...." picture I posted 11/19) prevent that backflow? I opened that valve up and the flapper seems functional. Secondly, How does one determine what model of vaporstat to buy? What are the pertinent specs to consider. Thanks.

Steamhead (in transit)

Not quite

if the boiler pressure is too high, it will hold the check valve closed and the water will back up behind it.

The Vaporstat to get is Honeywell model # L408J-1009. This is the latest one that does not contain mercury.

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LAG

OK now that makes sense. I have learned so much from this webiste. Steamhead ....I got your info on vaporstat and will be ordering one up soon but while I was at it, I thought I would order a gauge that reads in ounces but I haven't been able to find one on some of the websites I visited. Can you recommend Make/model ? Also..what do you suppose would be the cut-in and cut-out pressures (ounces right) for this vapor system?

Steamhead (in transit)

Try Winters Instruments

their low-pressure line of gauges can be accessed from the link below. You'd want the 0-32 inches w.c./ounces range.

http://www.winters.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=154

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LAG

Winters' no-sale website/suggested pressures

Steamhead thank you for your continued updates and education.
As far as I can tell, Winters does not sell to customers via the website so I will have to contact a distributor in Syracuse for the P301V gauge unless you know otherwise.

Thanks to your advice I believe I am getting closer to a solution and have already seen some improvement with the venting I have done. I also lowered the pressuretrol from 5 psi cut-in /6psi cut out to 0.5psi cut-in 1.5psi cut out which is the lowest I could achieve with this unit but I don't think these are low enough.. right.???.. although the 0.5psi would be equal to 8 ounces if that pressuretrol could respond at it lowest setting? When I get a vaporstat installed how much lower should I set these pressures?

Steamhead (in transit)

That's right

but now you know what model gauge to ask for.

Start the Vaporstat with a Main (cut-out) of 12 ounces or so and a Differential of about 6 ounces.

BTW, the 0-30 pound gauge must remain on the boiler to meet Code. Install an extra 1/4" tee for the low-pressure gauge.

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Unknown

Binghamton !!

That's where the Binghamton Senators hockey team play ! The Ahl all stars hockey game will be played the in january...

Al Kowalski Plumbing

Two Pipe steam Vapor Vacuum Heating. \"Kriebel System\" 1909

Have you heard of this type of system ? can vents be used?
There are no traps on the rads ! The system is not getting hot in the new baseboards . But the old rads are !
How to service this system ? Boiler crane 225 btu. All help would be appreciated! Thank you,Ak

Steamhead (in transit)

Depending

on what kind of baseboard you used and how you piped it, they may never heat. We need more details and photos.

The Kriebel did NOT use radiator vents. Air was routed into the dry return thru little check valves and out a central air vent. This is covered in "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", chapter 15. You can get a copy in the Online Store of this site.

The boiler should be controlled with a Vaporstat, not a Pressuretrol. Kriebel systems run on roughly 8 ounces pressure on the coldest day of the year. Anything more is wasteful.

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Al Kowalski Plumbing

Depending

Thanks for you input, I will get photos. I will get the book ! Thanks.

LAG_2

Steamhead.. Not sure if this will post (had trouble locating my thread and other folks posts got mixed in). My backordered vaporstat finally arrived and I installed it today along with the low pressure gauge. I fired up the boiler and it ran for about 10-15 minutes (pressure stayed around 1 ounce) and all baseboard rads heated pretty well but like before, water began shooting from the return riser thru the 2 Gorton vents. The pressure at that moment was just under three ounces. I turned thermostat down to cut off boiler & stop the spewing and am now basically confused and seemingly back to square one. Any ideas why that water is coming out?

Steamhead (in transit)

About the only other thing

that can cause that, is a blocked return line. Have it replaced.

Take a look at the check valve in the return line. It might be stuck.

The Vaporstat and low-pressure gauge were the right move on this system.

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Canadasteam

My 2-pipe Steam Mystery

The only 6B trap assembly i remember was made by Monash and Younker years and years ago,I had a look at the barnes and jones site and they appear to offer a replacement cage unit for that trap. http://www.barnesandjones.com/cusg_hm.htm

Sounds like that existing trap is not opening as required

Good Luck

LAG_2

The check valve was already checked and the flapper seemed free to move. I wanted to mention that the return riser spewing water only happens on an extended cycle (like when the boller was off for a while or if the thermostat is raised to a higher set point) . The spewing occurs only about twice a week and the rest of the time no problem. I can live with the system the way it is but I just was hoping I could stop the surprise water puddels. One thing I wanted to tell you was that after the first firing after the low pressure gauge was installed, the gauge is below the zero mark about four ounces when the boiler is between cycles and even when it is heating, it does not return to zero. I removed the gauge and it returned to zero as soon as i unscrewed it but after one burn cycle it is back to less than zero,, so basically I cannot even use this gauge and I doubt the vaporstat will come into play too. It seem the thermostat is the only thing cycling this boiler. I didn't notice this befoe becuase the PSI gauge had a peg at the zero mark where the needle rested so it could not show a negative value. What to do you make of that?

Steamhead (in transit)

It's pulling a vacuum!

and that also may explain the puddles on the floor. Nothing wrong with the gauge. Are there any other vacuum-type vents on this system?

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LAG_2

Steamhead.. thanks for keeping me updated. I figured that it was pulling a vacuum but I don't see how it can sustain the vacumm between cycles. The pair of Gorton's on top of the dry return riser should allow air back into the system right? To test..I even removed one of them with no affect on the gauge... it stayed at under zero. Same thing when, as a test, I tried to relieve vacuum by releasing the saftey relief valve. No change on gauge. There are (were) no other vents on system except that Dole 6B which I mentioned in my first posting which sat atop the dry return riser and which I replaced with 2 Gorton 1's. Actually I'm kind of confused now. Isn't a vacuum supposed to form in these 2 pipe system?

Steamhead (in transit)

Two of your quotes:

1- "I removed the gauge and it returned to zero as soon as i unscrewed it but after one burn cycle it is back to less than zero"

and

2- "Same thing when, as a test, I tried to relieve vacuum by releasing the saftey (sic) relief valve. No change on gauge"

This points to a blockage between the boiler and the gauge. It's probably the pigtail (loop of pipe under gauge and Vaporstat). If it's brass it can be flushed out; if steel replace it with a brass one.

Then you can tell exactly what the system is doing.

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LAG_2

Bingo! Steamhead...You were right. That steel pigtail was corroded to the point of total obstruction. I never even gave that "seemingly insignificant" part a thought but once you made the observation and I found it blocked I realized how important that thing is. i.e. none of gauges or controls have any functionality if it is blocked leaving only the safety relief valve as a means of controlling pressure. Anyway..couldn't find a brass replacement at 1PM on a Saturday but found a steel one and installed it (will change to brass in spring) and gauge and vaporstat now work fine. Cuts out at 12 ounces and in at 6. (Once it hits 12 oz and cuts out the pressure drops in under a minute to the 6 oz cut in... would that be expected or would you expect it to hold pressure longer ?)
Thanks very much for that hugely significant hint. I appreciate it very much.

Steamhead (in transit)

Now let's see

if that solves your problem of water leaving the vents.

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LAG

Follow Up-Gas Consumption/Charge

After making the changes recommended by Steamhead and the other generous contributors I wanted to post a follow up regarding gas consumption. My gas bill for this Jan-Feb period showed a daily consumption average of 6 therms with an average daily temp of 28 degrees compared to same period last year of 8 therms with a 27 degree average. If I can assume that the degree averages are essentially the same, then this looks like a 25% decrease in gas consumption as a result of getting this system functioning properly. Thanks.

Steamhead (in transit)

Your results

are fairly typical for this type of upgrade. Glad to help.

The "average temperature" might be pretty close, but if you want to be sure, compare the therms used this period to the degree-days you've had. To get degree-day figures, go here:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/cdus/degree_days/

"Steamhead"

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