TRiangle Tube Prestige Control Manual

Andrew Hagen_2

I dont feel that making information unavailable will avoid problems. Many homeowners are very capable of adjusting their heating curves. Sometimes I feel like homeowners get treated like toddlers who will kill themselves if they aren't protected from doing so by their heating tech. Yes, some are in that league and really should not be touching anything that burns fuel, but others are extremely intelligent and knowledgeable and they just want to tune their boilers based on their experience with the system the way the heating tech cannot. Viessmann provides sun and moon dials to shift the heating curve without entering the coding. This seems to make things simple enough that the average homeowner can turn the boiler up or down based on their experience with the system. I think the controls should be made user friendly enough that the slope and shift of the heating curve as well as DHW temperature can be adjusted without diving too deeply into the coding.

john smith_2

Triangle Tube Prestige Control Manual

The Triangle website does not have the control manual that describes its advanced operations...like how to change the temperature curve. Does anyone have this? Or, do you know where I cna get it?

-John

john smith_2

Triangle Tube Prestige Control Manual

The Triangle website does not have the control manual that describes its advanced operations...like how to change the temperature curve. Does anyone have this? Or, do you know where I cna get it?

-John

Shane_2

Triangle Tube

Call them direct Tel:856-228-8881
Fax: 856-228-3584
Email:info@triangletube.com

john smith_2

I tried calling them. They used to, but now will not give out this publication. Does anyone have it?

Glenn Sossin_2

I've got it

What are you trying to do? They only give this out if you attend their classes. Preventive medicine to keep un-skilled hands out of the brains of the boiler.

john smith_2

Their classes?

Despite my degrees, multiple patents, decades of experience, etc., apparently I am too dumb to qualify for their exalted supplement. If I sit through a 2 ½ hour training class (a.k.a. marketing session) then they will consider letting me in on their secrets. I really have more productive ways to spend my time.

I believe things like this are what happens when lovers of bureaucracy run a company. If they are so concerned about “untrained” people lousing up their controllers, then perhaps their engineers should design more robust control systems. It really isn’t rocket science.

Weezbo

You could call the contractor who installed your TT.

that would likely be the quickest way to get some help.

while there may be many people who would not deliberately make a mistake on wiring or settings that might create difficulties , the manufacturers often are liking to hear of top flight installs rather than hearing of the equipment taking flight from a building... so, that leads them to making the decision where and to whom and how and when to market the equipment. it sorta gives them some sense of confidence that their work is not being held up in a bad light.

A friend of mine once told me that i have to be careful in what i tell other people to help ,because, if they make a mistake ,then it may be construed that i told them to do that and it is all my fault:(

Speaking of faults do you have error readings ? maybe you dont need to be looking to change the heating curve...

Glenn Sossin_2

Your off base with your critisicm

First off, I agree with Weezbo - it would be a good idea to talk to your installer.

The training class is actually 11/2 days, (been through it twice). It is not a ra ra session, it takes you through trouble shooting, conversions from LP and Nat gas, programing the MCBA logic board, and what these settings actually do. It is far from marketing and bureaucracy.

The logic board is the Honeywell MCBA. The same one that is used by WeilMcClain Ultra, Dunkirk Q95, and the Burnham Freedom. It is not a secret and nothing at all to do with more robust control systems.

Case in point. A homeowner had an Ultra installed. For what ever reason - the homeowner started to scroll through the settings and parameters and inadvertently changed one. The next day, he had no hot water. The homeowner went through 2 plumbers in an attempt to solve.

The third plumber called me. At first, I had no reason to suspect tampering with the logic board. I went the the job, photographed it, went back to the office and studied the piping layout. Everything looked good. I went back later that evening to check the wiring, confirming contact closures and voltages to the pump etc.

First thing I did was, to verify the board settings. I found parameter 2 was changed. The HO inadvertently told the boiler to ignore DWH requests and only turn on the boiler for a CH (central heat) demand. I reset this parameter and the HO was back in business.

I believe Triangle Tube's logic is to prevent unnecessary cust service calls like my example.

Two of the common parameter changes we make, are boiler minimum and post purge. These are outside the scope of the 4 parameters that are accessible to you in the user manual.

We would change the boiler minimum if it was feeding fan coils so you don't blow cool air. We would turn off post purge if using zone valves so you don't dead head the pump.

Again, my offer to help you - what are you trying to do? While I won't give you the manual, you can call me and perhaps I can help you make the adjustment you are looking for over the phone.

Sorry you have such negative feelings. It really is a great boiler.

Glenn

Uni R_2

Probably a bad example Glenn

Glenn, parameters 1 to 4 are in the user manual which the owner should have on hand. Since these are changeable by the owner, the installer should instruct the owner on what they are for. Two affect your heat and two affect your hot water and any kid could change any so the owner really should have known how to resolve it. Likewise, if people want to optimize their reset curve they should be instructed how to do so and also how to fine tune post-purges etc. The service guy does not have 2 weeks to fine tune the curve down to minimize return temps, so half the MCBA's functionality for optimizing efficiency is wasted and the reset curve never gets dialed in. This boiler is far better than its defaults.

I was deeply offended when my installer's supplier sales rep informed my that my reset curve was off limits and that he'd come and do any changes needed. Yeah right... this was the guy who insisted that I add a spring loaded flow check valve right below a monoflo (the monoflo is to draw from a buffer tank).

Anyway, it was quiet until around xmas 2 weeks later, my mother was staying with us and at 3am she woke me up to say I think your boiler is broken. Anyway, he annoyed me with the thou shall not touch your highly tunable highly efficient boiler since you aren't trained and then left a ticking time bomb in my piping. The idiot actually undid the auto air vent and replaced it with the coin vent - my installer got annoyed on that one too and quickly swapped it back.

Anyway, if I had known the higher MCBA paraments would be off limits for me, I'd have bought a Vitodens.

nosirra1Arrison

In the real world

In theory...the installer would be well versed in the operating manual and control settings. In theory...the installer would be patient and available to the homeowner to explain and work through getting the settings correct. In theory...the installer would have actually had experience with your boiler on your type of system.

In reality...many if not most installers are learning these systems as they install them. They are on a learning curve at the homeowners expense. There is no way around this because these boilers are new technology. In reality...many installers are frustrated that they need to educate the customer how to run the system. This will involve return trips to do minor adjustments to things like the reset curve - probably many trips. No installer wants multiple calls on an install. Most expect to have at most one call back. In reality...your installer may have done a modern boiler on in floor radiant, but he may not have done a panel rad job like you have with this type of boiler. The panel rads require a completely different mindset to set the controls. Do we use the safe "no call back" settings from the manufacturer. If so the customer gets cheated out of exactly what they were looking for.

Gentlemen and ladies...we are in uncharted waters here and few are prepared to properly set up and explain these new boilers. Expect this conversation and the "black market" of information and misinformation that it causes. Wake up and realize that we are causing a reluctance to install these truley remarkable boilers. They are incredibly appropriate for the times we are in. Do we want to make it so hard to do the right thing?

Unknown

nosirra1

On the other hand, N.A. default emission codes are programmed at the factory level.
Does everyone have a combustion analyzer for this?, I think not.
Unless you REALLY KNOW what you are doing,,some things are better left unsaid.

Just listen to UniR, a guy with NO experience except his own basement!

Dave

nosirra1Arrison

middle ground

Dave,
Exactly.. there has to be a middle ground to meet on. To shut out the end user from the reset curve is absurd. To let him kill himself and his family, unconscionable.

No one is asking us to give the keys to the Maserati to the teenager. I'm just talking about some driver's ed to point the lad in the right direction. What is the point in buying a high tech boiler if you can't get it set up to work as efficiently as possible?

Burying settings needed by the homeowner is counterproductive. Keep them away from lowering the fanspeeds and other hazardous settings...but give them the ability to match the settings to their systems. Vitodens does.

Glenn Sossin_2

I think my example was a good one.

It was true, and demonstrates what can happen when a homeowner does dip his fingers into something he is not knowlegeable about or trained for. The homeowner went through 3 plumbers to fix a simply issue.

I do think, they could let a homeowner have access to the boiler minimum setting. Agree on that.

Unfortunately, I agree with most of what nosirra1 said. What I think is unfortunate, is these types of products should be installed based on accurate design data. The customer spent thousands more for these combustion efficiencies. Why is it not the responsibility of the installer to be sure he has properly designed the system and to insure he set up the boiler accordingly?

The only parameter adjustments that I think a homeowner might want to make is if its a constant circulation system, and your letting the boiler fire based on the reset curve. There may be a couple of degree increment changes on both the low and high side of the reset curve. In this instance, I agree, the homeowner should be aware of what this means, and how to adjust them.

To give the homeowner the manual to make these changes, with out the proper guidance/understanding of what they are doing, I think is wrong. The responsibility should fall on the designer/installer to make these fine adjustments - not the homeowner.

joel_19

Huh??

Are you guys telling me that there is a way to hack in and change the curves??? I have BEGGED my Triangle Tube rep for this info and he says it's not possable. They never told me i could take a 2 day course and have gotten that inf,if they had I would have.
Maybe somebody should tell someone further up their food chain that i sell 10 or more Vitodens to every TT because i can't adjust anything.HELLO anybody listening in TT world??

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nosirra1Arrison

Just the facts

Joel,
To avoid misinformation:

Installers get access to the Triangle Tube Prestige Control Application Supplement. That is the restricted document that has the settings.

Andrew Hagen_2

Manuals

The Vitodens comes with the Service Manual with all of the coding. Why haven't I haven't heard stories of people killing themselves or causing numerous service calls with Vitodens boilers? Is there something more dangerous about a Prestige?

Unknown

Agreed Andrew,

and touche,,but new cars are computerized with downloaded N.A. emissions info to supposedly help our global problems.
If everyone could alter this, how would any good be obtained?

Dave

Unknown

Andrew,

Could be,,perhaps this is something for Michael Moore, or Oliver Stone.

Dave