need help in analysing an old system

John_185

Dave;

It's a very similar boiler. Differences amount to quibbles. Mine hasn't got "Crane" written on the door, and, sadly, doesn't have isolating or shut off valves, so repair will involve lots of lost water. The pump even looks a lot like mine.

It's a tough choice to identify which one has the more creatively sculptured asbestos, though.

What kind of pressure does yours build up when it's running?

How long does it keep its pressure once burner and pump are off?

Is yours more efficient when run for a little longer time at higher temperatures.

John_185

analysing an old system's ailments



I have a 56 year old, 2 storey house, and it has its original boiler. That's a "Viking Junior" made by Warden King Ltd, and it has model "# W-350" stamped on the middle access door at the front, with "4101" stamped on the lower door. It measures about 3 feet tall and 2 x 2 feet wide. The burner unit is made by "Roberts Gordon"; showing as model 400RA, minimum input of 50,000 BTU/hr, with max. of 210,000BTU/hr. It's a standing pilot.

From the look of the front of it, I am guessing that this unit has been converted from coal fired to oil fired to gas fired over its career. Recent tests by the municipality have shown a CO output reading of 4PPM cold and 4PPM hot, taken at the first vertical section of pipe from the exhaust flange rear of the boiler.

The circulation pump, oddly mounted in the return pipe just before entry back into the boiler itself, is a "Leland", 2.7 amp, one sixth HP, 1725 RPM pump. It has some noises associated with the bearing, and it appears to be leaking slightly at the flange where the main housing joins the impeller housing. (I count one drop every 10 seconds currently leaking into a large can below it...). Makeup from municipal supply comes through two filters, (down to 1 micron) as well as a water softener.

In the interest of economy and without fully understanding the effects, I think I may have been achieving the opposite effect from my goal.

For the last several years I have run the system with a low programmed thermostat setting, using 18C as a nightly setting, cycling up to 19C during mornings for an hour or so, then setting back to 18C until around 5:30pm, then running at 19C until about 10:30 pm, when it settles back to 18C for the night. It gave me a false sense of economy, I think.

The chimney is tall, about 30 feet, and is brick with tile liner of about 8 inch square size. Now I find a lot of damage to the chimney, and there was some sign of water penetration into the inside wall in one of the bedrooms adjacent to the chimney recently. The system was completely turned off from April until mid October this year. All I did to restart was oil the pump, turn on the gas, light the pilot and switch on power.

The house is about 1500 square feet in total. It has inch and a quarter main pipes, all copper, feeding 12 baseboard and wall located aluminium finned, half inch copper pipe radiators. Only one rad is below grade. It is a one main loop system, without any split runs, and all rads are fed by a diverter tee setup.

I have a relatively new Amitrol 30 expansion tank, which I find out may have been mounted incorrectly by the installer, it being mounted horizontally.

So, what is the problem I am observing?

There doesn't seem to be very good heat production or distribution anymore, even in relatively mild weather(today is only hovering around freezing). Boiler temperatures only reach up to 140F when I set the thermostat up as high as 21 C on my wall unit. Today I am running it at 21C, as a test to see what happens.

The pump then runs for quite a while and the house warms up to between 19 and 21 depending upon where one sits, but there seems to be a lot of moisture in the house. Boiler pressure only gets up to 12 or so, whereas it has run a little higher in years past, getting up as high as 19 or 20 on the guage with extended use. I see a fair amount of condensation excaping up the chimney today, compared to other houses around me, and compared to what I would expect for the temperatures outside. There is high humidity outside recently.

The second floor on some pipe runs is not getting much heat at all...especially where I sleep...

Inside the heat exchanger when the flames are at their highest, it sounds like there is water dripping onto the flames. There is a more uneven sound to the burn than before.

Once the unit shuts off and sits dormant for a while I have seen the pressure dropping significantly...in the time it has taken for me to write this, it has gone from 12 to less than 10 psi, yet the pump is not seeming to show a lot of leakage at the moment. I have turned the power off, opened the front door, and inspected with a flashlight. There is some dark staining of the cast iton heat exchanger in places, but most of it seems to be an even colour of rusted iron. There is a light dusting of what seems to be sulphur crystals here and there inside it, too.

The dark stains are in the higher reaches of the unit, and they tend to be vertically oriented. There isn't any sign of water actually leaking out of the heat exchanger at this point.

Yet, the pressure indicator has shown pressure has now further dropped to 8 psi, within about 20 minutes.

Boiler temperature has dropped to around 100 F currently.

What's happening, and what is my best option to get this system back up again?

All suggestions are appreciated.

I am located in Kitchener Ontario, Canada.

John_185

analysing an old system's ailments



I have a 56 year old, 2 storey house, and it has its original boiler. That's a "Viking Junior" made by Warden King Ltd, and it has model "# W-350" stamped on the middle access door at the front, with "4101" stamped on the lower door. It measures about 3 feet tall and 2 x 2 feet wide. The burner unit is made by "Roberts Gordon"; showing as model 400RA, minimum input of 50,000 BTU/hr, with max. of 210,000BTU/hr. It's a standing pilot.

From the look of the front of it, I am guessing that this unit has been converted from coal fired to oil fired to gas fired over its career. Recent tests by the municipality have shown a CO output reading of 4PPM cold and 4PPM hot, taken at the first vertical section of pipe from the exhaust flange rear of the boiler.

The circulation pump, oddly mounted in the return pipe just before entry back into the boiler itself, is a "Leland", 2.7 amp, one sixth HP, 1725 RPM pump. It has some noises associated with the bearing, and it appears to be leaking slightly at the flange where the main housing joins the impeller housing. (I count one drop every 10 seconds currently leaking into a large can below it...). Makeup from municipal supply comes through two filters, (down to 1 micron) as well as a water softener.

In the interest of economy and without fully understanding the effects, I think I may have been achieving the opposite effect from my goal.

For the last several years I have run the system with a low programmed thermostat setting, using 18C as a nightly setting, cycling up to 19C during mornings for an hour or so, then setting back to 18C until around 5:30pm, then running at 19C until about 10:30 pm, when it settles back to 18C for the night. It gave me a false sense of economy, I think.

The chimney is tall, about 30 feet, and is brick with tile liner of about 8 inch square size. Now I find a lot of damage to the chimney, and there was some sign of water penetration into the inside wall in one of the bedrooms adjacent to the chimney recently. The system was completely turned off from April until mid October this year. All I did to restart was oil the pump, turn on the gas, light the pilot and switch on power.

The house is about 1500 square feet in total. It has inch and a quarter main pipes, all copper, feeding 12 baseboard and wall located aluminium finned, half inch copper pipe radiators. Only one rad is below grade. It is a one main loop system, without any split runs, and all rads are fed by a diverter tee setup.

I have a relatively new Amitrol 30 expansion tank, which I find out may have been mounted incorrectly by the installer, it being mounted horizontally.

So, what is the problem I am observing?

There doesn't seem to be very good heat production or distribution anymore, even in relatively mild weather(today is only hovering around freezing). Boiler temperatures only reach up to 140F when I set the thermostat up as high as 21 C on my wall unit. Today I am running it at 21C, as a test to see what happens.

The pump then runs for quite a while and the house warms up to between 19 and 21 depending upon where one sits, but there seems to be a lot of moisture in the house. Boiler pressure only gets up to 12 or so, whereas it has run a little higher in years past, getting up as high as 19 or 20 on the guage with extended use. I see a fair amount of condensation excaping up the chimney today, compared to other houses around me, and compared to what I would expect for the temperatures outside. There is high humidity outside recently.

The second floor on some pipe runs is not getting much heat at all...especially where I sleep...

Inside the heat exchanger when the flames are at their highest, it sounds like there is water dripping onto the flames. There is a more uneven sound to the burn than before.

Once the unit shuts off and sits dormant for a while I have seen the pressure dropping significantly...in the time it has taken for me to write this, it has gone from 12 to less than 10 psi, yet the pump is not seeming to show a lot of leakage at the moment. I have turned the power off, opened the front door, and inspected with a flashlight. There is some dark staining of the cast iton heat exchanger in places, but most of it seems to be an even colour of rusted iron. There is a light dusting of what seems to be sulphur crystals here and there inside it, too.

The dark stains are in the higher reaches of the unit, and they tend to be vertically oriented. There isn't any sign of water actually leaking out of the heat exchanger at this point.

Yet, the pressure indicator has shown pressure has now further dropped to 8 psi, within about 20 minutes.

Boiler temperature has dropped to around 100 F currently.

What's happening, and what is my best option to get this system back up again?

All suggestions are appreciated.

I am located in Kitchener Ontario, Canada.

Unknown

John,

This one is oil-fired, does it look similar to this?(bet it does)!
BTW- If you`re curious about WK?, check this out.
I`m in Brockville, Ont.

Dave

Unknown

John,

I`m a heating contractor and this is waiting replacement. Efficiency on this is in the mid 40`s. This has a joist mounted tank, but pressure elevates to about 20 when hot, but drops as it cools(as it always will)!
In my opinion, don`t dwell on this thing much,,get some efficiency in there!

Dave

John_185

and further, about Warden King Ltd...

Dave;

I finally read the link about the manufacturer.

Umm....so, if my boiler doesn't have the name "Crane" on it, and is shown as just "Warden King Ltd", the actual unit must have been made before the merger in 1926...is that right? (Or else somebody just hung an old door on it sometime along the way....)

So, what's it doing in a house that wasn't built until 1951?

Ironically, this place was built for a plumbing and heating contractor, sort of a semi-custom built home. I'm the second owner since it was built.

I am beginning to think that the first owner installed a boiler that was at least 25 years old when the house was being contrsucted! Talk about a frugal guy!

So, any words of wisdom about these things?

John_185

replacing the aged boiler

Replacement seems to me the best way to address the problem, too, iof the cost is not too crazy. However, I have been researching what is out there, as I ponder my options.

Quite apart from the obvious issue of asbestos abatement, I'm beginning to learn a little about the functional differences between non-condensing and condensing boilers, and have some questions around the durability of the latter.

So, I decided to do a Google search for a 90% AFUE conventionally wented boiler.

The only one I can find is not yet sold in Ontario, although it is available in 65 dealers across the west and apparently into the Washington state area, too. I haven't yet got clear price ranges on it, but I am thinking a compact unit can be installed before I get rid of the old one, and thus I can isolate the old one and seal it off, while I try to figure out an affordable way to deal with it.

Do you know of any boilers that are compact do both domestic water supply and hydronics, are affordable, have a decent expectation of longevity, and can be mounted on the wall?

Unknown

John,

who knows?,,the oil boiler in my pic was moved from an army barracks in the early 50`s!
Remember, not much money was kicking around after wartime!

Dave

Unknown

Try,

something along these lines, they are a great unit!

Dave