$5500 could have been $500

Timco

Sorry, but I would think any company that goes on a 'no heat to certain areas' call and does not check for air binding, pressure issues, bad circs or zones with no flow (valve closed or full of junk or pinched line) before re-piping has the burden of paying for un-needed repairs out of their own pocket. I trust no one's opinion on the job site but my own. Did you bill the cust your full price? Sounds like the work was not needed. I have always felt an obligation to check the entire system to the best of my ability when troubleshooting...

Tim

laurence salvatore_2

$500 or $5000

Here in coastal Conn. there are more people than you think who find GC they trust/like and any work at their homes go through them, from changing a flapper to a new heating system. We just did a job like that. The GC, who is usually on the ball, instructed us to remove the electric water heater and zone the two pipe hot water system leaving the new 4 sec Burnham. The home owner was not comfortable. The upstairs rooms on either side of the two story living room were always cold since move in 3 years ago. As was the kitchen. The first floor is WM ci baseboard and the upstairs those WM ci half convector half recessed radiator. We were not called to trouble shoot the problems we were called to zone the system and install a stainless indirect. I convinced them to keep the ci on the 1st floor. We left the iron pipe for the 1st flr zone and did monoflo loops for the 2 2nd flrs. 4 circs pumping away. Well all the places that had been cold were still cold, that is until we opened the closed radiator valves.

laurence salvatore_2

We did not go on call for no heat in certain areas. We were there to zone the heat so the client could turn down certain areas of the house while children are at boarding school. I have never seen these people. The only reason We found out about the cold rooms was because one of the lads went on an unrelated after hours plumbing call and spoke to a house-sitter who mentioned it in passing. What I think you don't understand is these very rich people do not want to see, hear, or talk to the multitudes of tradesmen maintaining their property. They want us to come like fairies, make the shoes and go. They only want to deal withone person ie. the GC. The point of my original post was to point out that if someone had said they were cold at the outset we would have approached it as a service call. As it was, it was done as a contracted project with specific outlines and goals. We were never asked to diagnose a problem nor were any heat problems ever dicussed by the responsable poeple. If the homeowner had deigned speak to the lowly plumbers they would have had more money to spend in St.Maritz this winter. Yes they were charged in full for a completed contract as written.

Maine Ken

Larry, how did you test and verify that your new piping arrangement functioned properly? Seems that at the minimum you should have discovered the closed valves then. We ALWAYS verify heat in all areas and zones before we pack away the tools. I am not sure the "I did what was written in the contract" story would hold much weight if there had been some disaster like frozen domestic and water damage.

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Timco

My new question exactly. How could you have known that your work was performed properly and the zones were bled / purged and working if there were valves shut off? I still cannot imagine being told to re-pipe and not test or check my work, and leave. Just because the customer may be a rich jerk does not mean they should be taxed for that. Has this situation been brought to their attention that they overpaid by an estimated $5 grand???? Maybe the post should be $5500 SHOULD have been $500...

laurence salvatore_2

We found the closed vavles when we tested the new work. I don't know if the customers are jerks or not I have never met them. We were permitted access to the basement only when the customers were home. The work was done while they were away. At that point we had the run of the house. We left the valves to radiators open assuming the rooms were too hot before. We only found out the rooms were cold from the nanny or house keeper on a service call for a pool filler 2 weeks later. I don't care if the bill was or . If we were not working there we would have been working somewhere else. I was only trying to relate an amusuing albeit unfortunate incident about lack of communicaton. We just changed a washer for a gentleman whose lowest estimate for changing an antifrost sillcock was I could have charged him and looked like a hero, but all he needed was a 1/4L bibb washer and thats what he got. service call plus $.50 for a washer and for a 1/4 compression coupling to restore waster to an icemaker and the tech tightened a faucet spout as well 3 problems solved for a lot less than his best estimate to solve 1. Maybe you uberplumbers should lighten up.

Timco

"The only reason We found out about the cold rooms was because one of the lads went on an unrelated after hours plumbing call and spoke to a house-sitter who mentioned it in passing."

Based on the prior posts, there seems to be some ambiguity as to who found the valves closed...and when. Yes, someone could have said something, but if ensuring my work is performing 100% in all zones prior to leaving, and if inspecting the entire system prior to performing admittedly un-needed work makes me an 'uberplumber', than I am so labled. You never did say if the customer was informed that they were ripped off for $5 G....

BTW, do you see any other post in all the threads on the Wall where prices are mentioned / discussed?

laurence salvatore_2

If you read the post, the vavles were found closed when the work was tested. It appears you do not favour zoning hydronic heating systems. The cusomer contacted the GC. The GC made his recomdations which were accepted by the customer. I belive the GC decided the issue was control. Control was all that was ever discussed. It has been in the 80's up until a few days ago so how could the techs know what rooms were cold. They were all cold the A/C was on. If you have some insight into finding problems that are not mentioned and not dripping on your shoe; I'd like to learn about it. It would seem to be a good way to keep busy.

Timco

1...I only recommend work ( zoning or anything else ) when it is needed. Not when valves are turned off. I also sell TRV's with great success. 2...I tend to throw in my own opinion when the GC and cust think they know best. 3...With the flick of a very small switch and a turn of a dial, the AC can be turned off and the heat turned on any time of the year, regardless of outside temp. 4...the pics attached were not mentioned or dripping on my foot, but were found and fixed. Again, was the customer informed they got $5500 worth of services and only needed $500???

Tim

laurence salvatore_2

I do not know how to make this any planer. I was not asked for any solutions to any prblems. I was consulted as to A) could the system be zoned? Yes. B)Does it make sense? Yes. The GC and the customer asked for zones and got them. They also got the indirect they wanted and eliminated a 120 gal. electric water heater owned by the utility and set at 140 degrees They also got a bypass on the boiler which was omitted from the original installation by the oil company and is pictured in the installation instructions. So this season the flue gasses will condense in the atmosphere instead of the chimney and boiler. I think zones make sense. At no time was the issue of comfort brought up by any principal. Every thing was tested and it works fine. You are so concerned with the clients checkbook, why have you not extolled the fact that we gently steered them away from 60 or 70 feet of unnesessary runtal baseboard they had their hearts set on? TRV's would are agood option but for the most part are athsteticly DOA around here. It is a struggle just to keep them from ripping out the ci emitters. Is it our place to ask cutomers why they want a Pensotti or a Veismann when a Burnham or a Peerless will do the same thing? Is it our place to ask why they want a Grohe shower mixer when a Symmons will do the same thing?

Timco

If my customer can afford and asks for a shower valve that costs more than their water heater, I gladly put it in. None of my business. If all work was justified, why the name you gave this thread? You would not have put in a indirect & bypass for $500, correct? It would seem I mis understood your purpose of the posting at this point. And, for me, the customer's checkbook is more important than mine. I sleep well knowing no customer was charged $5500 for $500 of needed work as the post name implies. I do not want to carry this on, I just do not think the cust got treated fairly, and would really have a problem with the name of this post if they read it.

Tim

martin

No way to win

It sounds to me like you did all the right things at the right time, unless you're the amazing Carnac you could not know about the valves.If you are Carnac you screwed up.

laurence salvatore_2

I can't take it any more. If they said'"these rooms are comfortable, these rooms are not" We would have investigated, found the valves closed; opened them, and had the client try it like that for a while. Who are you to judge if your client can afford a shower valve that costs more than the water heater? Maybe they just want one. I used to work for a guy who worried about his clients check book more than his own. He and the one employee he has left are misreble. He's got the same cloths he had on ten years ago, and he spends his life driving 10 miles out of his way to save every skinflint in town 3 bucks on a delta faucet. Perhaps this mantra will be of some help to you: "They want what they want and its not our place to tell them differently." Thats from a plumber I worked for who has a house at the beach, a ski house in Vt. and spends 9 or 10 weeks a year using them. He also has big smile on all the time, lots of happy employees and does quite a bit of pro bono work. Good day. Good luck.

Timco

Did you read the first line of my last post? I don't care what the customer asks for...if they pay, I put it in. Who am I to judge??? I DO NOT judge, as I said. I do what I am paid to do, and stopped fixing leaky toilets years ago. I could not agree more with the phrase " maybe they just want one." I just don't get why the name of the thread. If I was the cust and read that, you would hear from my lawyer...that's all. And I firmly believe a zone with a closed valve could not possibly have been bled or purged or checked. That is all from here...

Tim

laurence salvatore_2

There was just one zone in the begining. 3 individual radiator valves were closed. Noone asked why those rooms were colder than the rest. If, if, the cold rooms were the genisis of the call to the GC it could have been handled in lower impact less costly manner. The point is the possible break down in comuniction between the client, GC, and plumbers. If we had direct access to the end users, (which we were not) maybe they would have gotten opened radiator valves, and maybe they would have gotten 3 new zones. The GC was calling the shots. He is not a fly by night guy. More than a few of his clients have their names on builings and wings of buildings at Yale, Brown, various hospitals ect. If he and we were rip-off artists like you say we would not last very long in those tight knit circles. These people choose to handle their affairs a certain way, and sometimes this method may not work to the absolute best every time.

PeterGriffin

"post retracted"