EDT

Brad White

Brian, Hi-

I seem to be missing your calls these days... That looks like a bucket trap to me. It is not an F&T of a kind that I have seen. An F&T should work fine though. See what Tunstall has to say.

Bucket traps are fine under constant load, F&T's for intermittent loads.

My rule is, if you cannot identify it, buy a new one and start fresh. Great to have retro parts these days but there is a limit.

archibald tuttle

EDT (Every Damn Trap)

or maybe I'm just singing the praises of politicians for extending daylight savings time. I'm going for year round myself. That is my platform if I ever run, although usually I just run away.

Anyway, on this two pipe condensate pump returned system there are two mains and this picture shows the "6G" trap at the end of the main. It is down sized from the 2" main to 3/4" with a leg over which could be a bit of a cooling leg or just serve as a connector, not sure.

Trap looks similar to a drum trap under a sink in general appearance or mabybe a bit like a spiro-vent. It has a boss at the middle with bolts that hold the two halves together and a threaded cap in the top (not sure yet if it is pipe thread or what. not necessarily looking forward to finding out).

Anyone know if this is a thermostatic or an F&T trap, or ??? There is no manufacturer's name in any of the castings and thought I would figure out if my best approach to service the trap is to:
1. leave it alone if it sort of seems to be working (which would be a little easier to know if I knew what kind of trap it is)

2. try to take the plug out of the top of the trap.

or

3. undo the flange bolts at the center and knock it apart with a hammer.

4. get new trap altogether

Thanks,

Brian

bob_50

It's

an Illinois float and thermostatic G6.

archibald tuttle

every gd trap

bob,

thanks for that ID. I'll plague turnstall to see if they have guts for the thing. I first wondered if it might be a bucket trap just because it was round and unusual, but in looking at the inlets and outlets and various drawing of bucket traps in a book I stole from Brad for a couple weeks by some unnamed author who runs some unnamed heating discussion forum, I guessed it might actually be F&T.

That said, any idea if anybody has rebuild kit for this trap.

Thanks,

BRian (PS -don't hestitate to exercise your remarkable powers of contribution on my other thread EDRV - Every damn radiator valve)

Steamhead (in transit)

I would have to question

whether that return pump and tank is actually needed, along with the extra traps.

If the system can heat on several ounces pressure, I would say probably not. I think you might have a later-model Vapor system there, these run on 8-10 ounces on the coldest day of the year if they're properly set up.

Some misguided installers add return tank/pump units to these systems because they're afraid there isn't enough water in newer boilers to fill the system with steam. Well, steam occupies 1700 times the volume of water at atmospheric pressure, and at ounce pressures the steam is not compressed much at all. So the extra piping and moving parts/maintenance headaches are almost never needed in systems of this type.

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archibald tuttle

question away

I think the condensate pump is actually necessary, just. It's a tall old coal steamer with a shell gun in the base. I've got 22.5 inches of "b" dimension under those Illinois F&T's on the main which empty into a dry return.

I suppose, in theory, I could add a wet return for the mains and I might almost eke out 28" of "a" dimension since the mains are a few inches higher than the F&T's. Plus I'd have very little pressured drop in the these dual straight 2" x 40 ft. mains so I probably wouldn't need the full 28". Then I would have about 50" of "b" dimension to my lowest convector traps.

It might be worth the pipe for the wet return to do away with the condensate pump although the system was obsoleted when I arrived on the maintenance scene (everyone in the house had wood stoves, the 70s). When we all got sick of that I just started up the system again and the condensate pump has been working flawlessly for almost 20 years without a hiccup and who knows how long it had worked during the 50s and 60s without service before the system was shut off. so I'm just getting to the point where i'm pretty impressed and beginning to like condensate pumps.

I was even considering whether to add a vaccum pump to speed air exhaustion and steam dispersion, trying to figure out if I could save the expense in fuel costs by slightly reducing steaming times.

Anyway, if the condensate pump ever goes, I think I'm going to consider having a wet return ready.

Of course another option is to leave everything as is and abandon the tall old steamer for the two Weil-Mclain golds that i scored last year and let one run each main and split the returns. Same deal, I need to run one more return but it can be a dry return and keep the mains trapped as the new boiler water lines are almost 2' below the old monster so that is another way to get up to almost 50" of "b" dimension which, if I'm lucky I wouldn't even need all of so it won't hurt if I pour a 4" pedestal to level up the old 'floor'.

I have to experiment with how low I can go pressure wise to see if these setups would work without a pump. Of course the boiler was fitted with a standard pressuretrol and even at a lowish setting it never made pressure (I'm firing it a relatively low rate, I think its got 1.5 gph at 74% efficiency, I forgot to check the maintenance record. I don't know how that converts to EDR exactly.) I think the system itself is reasonably tight but the convectors and system piping are condensing as fast as I make steam but not so fast that I'm not getting to all the radiators.

So anyway, I put a vaportrol on this year (used the mercury full model) and I'm going to experiment with the lowest steaming pressure that effectively fills the radiators. I'm guessing I might be able to run the system on 1 lbs. cut out, 8 oz. cut in, or maybe even a slightly lower range in which case I'd have plenty of "b" dimension if I use the new small boilers. Maybe I'd even have enough "b" dimension with the current setup if I could run 12 oz. cut out, 4 oz. cut in.

If I do put in the small boilers which I imagine could gain me a little theoretical efficiency although I don't think 74% is that bad for an old monster. But I still am a little worried about low water circumstances with small modern boilers. Although I know the 1700 times number, the low pressure and the convector style heaters which should condense quickly and return condensate maybe argue against this being a problem as long as I get my close to boiler piping right, I guess I can still be superstitious. It's steam after all, simple except when it's not.

Well there is the novel for any of you literary critics out there with suggestions.

thanks.

Brian

Steamhead (in transit)

I bet

there was a wet return originally. Don't forget, if you do the wet return and eliminate the traps on the steam mains, the "B" dimension at the end of each steam main becomes an "A" dimension. An "A" dimension will not change with rising and falling pressure like a "B" dimension will. So you should be OK, especially since you have a Vaporstat instead of a Pressuretrol.

Run a wet return from each steam main and, if the dry returns are also split, you can split the entire system to use the W-M Golds. And kiss the pump goodbye. I doubt it was there originally.

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