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Patio Warming

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<I>Very</I> interesting product. Will have to study more but something tells me it's not practical for providing comfort on a mainly open-air patio. It CERTAINLY can't work for both indoors and outdoors at the same time.

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  • Joe_76
    Joe_76 Member Posts: 34
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    Patio Warming

    I am trying to design a warm stamped slab. The slab is covered and has glass on one side with the house on the other(like a car port). It will only be used on 40f days and warmer. I tried to design it with my design software using both the radiant design and snowmelt, but the numbers on both systems do not seem right. I am not worried about surface temps. Has anyone done this successfully or am I trying to do the impossible.

    Thanks Joe Billow
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
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    Heated Patio in MT

    The first question is exactly what the owner would like to accomplish and how they would like to use the system. If they want to turn it on when they go out on the patio, it will probably not perform to their expectations. The only way this will work reliably is if they keep the patio slab idling all the time and warm it on a schedule to anticipate times when they will use the patio. It just takes a while to charge up that slab. Plus in western Montana you're looking at a substantial part of the year that drops below 40°F at night and rises above 40°F during the day. This slab could get a real workout.

    The obvious solution is to wear shoes when they're on the patio and use an outdoor patio heater that they can turn on when they want to go out on the patio. I doubt it will feel very warm on the patio when it's 40°F, even if the slab is warm.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,933
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    Andrew's right and make sure they understand

    it could get costly to run an idling slab. Mad Dog

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  • [Deleted User]
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    Consider...

    Radiant Glass!!

    Instantly warm...

    And you can SEE through it.

    www.rgiglass.com

    I'll have it on the new porch of my new home.

    Clear Comfort

    ME
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
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    Unless this space is shaped like a very long, narrow hallway with only the ends open, I'll suggest that it's impossible to provide comfort (at least anywhere near room temp) by heating the floors in 40F weather when you have to walls open to the great outdoors.

    High temperature (hundreds if not well over 1,000 degree) gas-fired (at least all I've seen are gas) truly radiant panels are available. Be aware however that they generally must be used in multiples to provide decent comfort unless you rotate your body... Wind breaks (often nothing more than a clear plastic curtain) will be required in windy weather.
  • [Deleted User]
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    Come on Mark !

    Unless you have an alternative electric source do you really think thats a very green product. Its funny I thought of the idea a long time ago..(rear window defoggers in the car). While I agree it will keep a home cozy, but the 11% you gain in lower energy needed to heat the room? Won't that go back to the electric company, and then some?

    Sounds like another thread I will shut up.

    Gordy
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
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    Perhaps you were a bit harsh Gordy. Even though it's electric heat this could conceivably be a "green" product...

    NEVER forget that window glass is almost completely opaque to infrared heat. Heat conducts through glass--it does not pass through it like visible light. This is for multi-glazed windows ONLY, not single-glazed like a rear-window defroster.

    You're right that this seems a GREAT thread topic!
  • [Deleted User]
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    Not being harsh

    Mike I have always liked the concept, and understand that by lowering the window delta t we reduce heatloss.

    At 126 Btuh a sqft. there has to be a little juice running through the system no. I guess if you do not have a huge amount of glass it could prove to be a payoff......

    Gordy
  • Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating
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    heat a wall

    if you can, a low mass system like a wall will heat a lot quicker than a slab. Bob Gagnon

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  • Joe_76
    Joe_76 Member Posts: 34
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    I talked to him today. He wants to put insulated curtains on the ends and the glass is some type of green house glass. He doesn't mind that it will probably double or triple his heating bill even on warmer days. I did the design using the R-21 ceiling, used a R-1 for the three walls the glass one included, it seems doable under ideal conditions. I dislike the idea of throwing BTUs outside though.
  • Joe_76
    Joe_76 Member Posts: 34
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    He decided to use insulated curtains when it gets colder on the ends.
  • Joe_76
    Joe_76 Member Posts: 34
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    I may look at that on the one wall, thanks
  • Joe_76
    Joe_76 Member Posts: 34
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    I will, thanks
  • [Deleted User]
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    Well Gordy....

    Seeings as how he's putting out side, I would have to agree that the application is NOT very green. I was trying to provide a solution, not an environmentally friendly solution:-) Besides, using energy of any source out of doors is a losing proposition, and the only one I can truly recommend is burning wood, in one of them patio approved pits. Now THAT is considered green :-) Or in some cases bluish grey haze.

    Now, as for the electric window, I'm staking my future on this device. If I can prove that dollar for dollar, it will cost less than a typical RFH installation, and it can reduce (eliminate) the window losses, which as we practicing hydronicians know, can make using RFH touch and go at best and still be able to carry the load, and as we all know, RFH DOES have its limitations, as does the glass.

    But when comparing the overall human comfort factor (operative temperature, whatever term suits your needs) this system KICKS BUTT. They have a couple of demonstrators in the glass plant where they are built, and as you walk around the corner, this thing GRABS you and pulls you to it like a tractor beam on Star Trek...

    I'm thinking REAL green here Gordy. Remember the discussions about how RFH, or any conventional system is going to be gross overkill in some of these SUPER insulated homes??? Well, we don't need no stinking heating system with these windows... because they ARE the heating system! And they neutralize the cold glass' effect on the home environment and occupants, thereby causing the room to be noticeably more comfortable at a lower temperature settings.

    I've devised an indoor/outdoor reset system for the whole shebang to insure operating efficiency and maximized comfort. As a matter of fact, the name of my new venture will be Clearly Comfortable. We are aligning ourselves with a high efficiency hydrogen fuel cell company and will be able to pull power directly off of the proton exchange membrane, thereby eliminating inverter losses. And it also has obvious beneficial characteristics when paired with a solar PV system. Our office managers hubby is the International sales manager for Kiocera Solar, so we have that one in the bag...

    Can you tell I'm EXCITED by this technology??

    Oh, and did I mention the off peak thermal energy generation/storage system we have in a conceptual stage using this very same technology yet??? They can get the glass up to 300 degrees F no problem... (Think really compact Steffes unit here with easily replaceable (if necessary) heating/storage elements)

    REALLY excited.

    Heated mirrors, heated picture frames for internal room losses, glass desk tops, glass counter tops, glass towel racks, and the list keeps growing :-)

    REALLY REALLY excited :-)

    I read the report that Kirby Chapman generated (at my behest), and he can't quite figure it out completely either, but he too was impressed with the technology.

    Clearly Comfortable... Watch for it at a store near you ;-)

    ME
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