2 kickspace heaters

Brad White

part of the challenge of this forum is in the necessary assumptions we have to make, not actually being there.

I had envisioned this being done from your basement where you could do pretty much what you wanted.

Given your description, I would tee off to each in parallel to make sure that each kickspace heater gets the same hot water temperature regardless. The baseboard would then come off at opportunity. If you fed that too directly from the riser source and if it was not too far away compared to the kickspace heaters then yes, you would not need monoflow tees.

Now, I have to ask (and at the risk of denigrating kickspace heater manufacturers), have you considered panel radiators or other means more passive than fan-forced heaters? I mean, most of the time folks find them noisy. They would rather tune them out or try to than be cold. Heck of a choice, IMHO. I have never met anyone that chose kickspace heaters as the first line of defense. They have always been a "what else am I to do" solution.

My $0.02

Brad

tm

I am planning to run a zone with 2 B-M kickspace heaters (8,000 each) and just one standard 4' hwbb. This zone has it's own circulator.
I am thinking that the best piping would be to use a one pipe system with a standard tee feeding each unit, installing a bleeder dime valve coming out of the return and then a momoflow back to the 3/4 then on to the next one.

Will this work well? I can put the 4' baseboard anywhere along the loop but was thinking of feeding it 1st.

Any problems/advice? Does anyone recommend valves ahead of the units?

It says in the B-M literature that the units will work in a series loop where pressure and temp drop can be tolerated - would this be an option for my case?

Brad White

Better Yet

Run a loop but feed the KSH's in parallel, not in series, such that each gets the same full temperature of hot water.

If you do this, the pressure drop will be just that of one heater, not both if they were to be in series. The return can then be "reverse return" and will self-balance.

The baseboard you can run off of a monoflow tee (just one if it is above the main). That could be on either the supply or the return side of the KSH's because it will not reduce the temperature that much.

Better Still: You could also run the baseboard to be fed across the supply and returns from a point both upstream and downstream of the KSH's. Done in parallel that way, the baseboard and KSH's will get the same hotter temperature and will not affect the KSH's. It will just share the flow.

I would think that you could do this without a monoflow tee because the KSH pressure drop likely exceeds that of the baseboard.

Does that make sense?

I am leery of using more than one monoflow tee on a 3/4" run (which I presume you will be using).

tm

Brad, Not sure if I get this. Are you saying that I would not use a monoflow tee at all with the kickspace units in this parallel method? My feed comes up in the center of the house on the 2nd floor and the kickspace units will be in each bedroom (about 16' apart)- so I would install a tee off my feed and go over to each unit then come back to the center of the house with the two returns into another tee? Where would the 4' bb tie in exactly?

tm

Brad, thanks for all your thoughts. I am trying to avoid running a loop all around the whole 2nd floor (converted attic). I thought it made sence to keep all the copper on one end (the end where the risers come up). I will build 3'tall knee walls between the roof line and the floor. These knee walls are ony about 8' long in each bedroom. The reason I thought I would use the kickspace heaters is that they seem to pack the biggest punch. 8' of bb in each bedroom would not be enough. However I did consider using 8' in each and supplementing with another 8' of electric baseboard on the other end of each room. Going back to the kickspace idea, I figure if I put one in each space behind the kneewall, it would certainly blow the heat across the rooms to heat somewhat well with a total of 16,000 btus,no? And the fans are suppossed to be quite quiet on these.

If I tee off in the center of the house and run a line to each unit, would I keep with 3/4 all the way as close to the units as possible or can I convert to 1/2' at the tee?
I'm still not sure why I don't need monoflow tees when it is shown in all the manufacturers drawings??

Brad White

Everything is quiet

> Brad, thanks for all your thoughts. I am trying

> to avoid running a loop all around the whole 2nd

> floor (converted attic). I thought it made sence

> to keep all the copper on one end (the end where

> the risers come up). I will build 3'tall knee

> walls between the roof line and the floor. These

> knee walls are ony about 8' long in each bedroom.

> The reason I thought I would use the kickspace

> heaters is that they seem to pack the biggest

> punch. 8' of bb in each bedroom would not be

> enough. However I did consider using 8' in each

> and supplementing with another 8' of electric

> baseboard on the other end of each room. Going

> back to the kickspace idea, I figure if I put one

> in each space behind the kneewall, it would

> certainly blow the heat across the rooms to heat

> somewhat well with a total of 16,000 btus,no? And

> the fans are suppossed to be quite quiet on

> these.

>

> If I tee off in the center of the

> house and run a line to each unit, would I keep

> with 3/4 all the way as close to the units as

> possible or can I convert to 1/2' at the

> tee? I'm still not sure why I don't need

> monoflow tees when it is shown in all the

> manufacturers drawings??



until you turn them on. "Quiet" is subjective. I have a KSH in my house, a supposedly very quiet one sized for low temperature.

It rattles but is inaudible when I run a leaf-blower next to it, which I find myself doing from time to time.

If you could fit 8 feet of baseboard, go get some Runtal convectors or other panel radiators to match the heat loss and call it a day, really. If you DO run any piping in the kneewall space, make certain (CERTAIN) that you are really in a warm space. Presence of insulation is no guarantee of that.

Lots of air moves behind knee walls, arrrgh. Storms brew just like when we rounded the horn back in ought-three... yar har.

Brad White

Everything is quiet

until you turn them on. "Quiet" is subjective. I have a KSH in my house, a supposedly very quiet one sized for low temperature.

It rattles but is inaudible when I run a leaf-blower next to it, which I find myself doing from time to time.

If you could fit 8 feet of baseboard, go get some Runtal convectors or other panel radiators to match the heat loss and call it a day, really. If you DO run any piping in the kneewall space, make certain (CERTAIN) that you are really in a warm space. Presence of insulation is no guarantee of that.

Lots of air moves behind knee walls, arrrgh. Storms brew just like when we rounded the horn back in ought-three... yar har.

tm

I just checked some panel radiators and it seems that one that would put out 8,000btus is going to run me $1500.00 WOW way to much. My wife runs a sound soother all night long because she does not like it all too quiet so again I am leaning in the direction of the kickspace idea. Is the complaint just noise or are there other reasons why some don't like them? Are they efficient?

Brad White

Shop around....

Veha and Buderus make stamped panel radiators that may be more cost effective for you and do not require electricity. Just my preference to use more "passive" heat emitters where I can.

BTUs are BTUs. Efficiency is the same on the water side but you have to move a little bit of air to get them.

Subjective really, on my preference.

tm

All right let's see if I have this right. I have a supply riser with it's own circulator piped up to the second floor. I am going to feed the 4' bb first. Coming out of the bb about 5' away I will put a tee - from there I will run about 10' of 3/4 to the supply of each kickspace unit. Coming out of the return of each unit I will install a bleeder coupling and then converting back to 3/4" I will run each back to another tee which will then become my return back to the boiler. All this with no monoflow tees - right?

Couderay

Baseboard

They do make baseboard with 2 sets of fin tube there by getting 16 linear feet of fin in eight feet of cover which in your case might be better than the kickspace heaters

www.argobaseboard.com

tm

Thanks Joe - I did not know this. However I fear that the other end of the bedroom would be cold with all the heat on one end (I have about 20' of space between kneewalls). The kickspace has the advantage of blowing the heat across the room so I would obtain a more even heating.